Capitol Hill Blue Forums Life and Moral Issues Crime & Punishment Illegal Immigration and Appropriate Penalties

Agreed. Cutting the head off the snake is more effective than killing the snake a bit at a time starting with the tail.

Well, you thought Larry Craig had been entrapped as well.

No rick, I never said that about Craig. I questioned whether any law had been violated and went further to question whether it can or ought to be a crime if the officer goes there for the purpose of finding violations.

Okay. If that is the way you want to play it. Educate yourself, Roger.:-)

The Connection Between legal and Illegal Immigration


Here is one you may find interesting:


And how about one from an Ethnics-R-Us ?


Yours,
Issodhos

By the way, for those of you that enjoy irony:

The Mexican consumer was able to purchase corn and other foodstuffs cheaper from American and Canadian farmers than they could from Mexican farmers (peasants seems to be the preferred work -- guess it makes them sound nobler) partly because American and Canadian foodstuffs are subsidized.

So, ironically, the American taxpayer is actually subsidizing cheaper food prices for Mexican consumers. Yet one more reason for eliminating such subsidies.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos

Everywhere I read conclusory quotes about data, but rarely do I see the data itself along with those conclusions... like, the current corn price is around $4.50/bu, and the most recent figures I can find for corn subsidies are from 1995 through 2005, when the u.s. govt apparently subsidized corn to the tune of $40 billion - during that time, U.S. farmers produced around 90 billion bushels, so that means the corn is subsidized around 44 cents/bushel.

Given all of the above, does that mean that we sell U.S. corn to Mexico for $4.06/bu? Do Mexican farmers get more than that? From whom? And how is that bad?

I suspect that it of course is not a linear relationship; that either the subsidy has a leveraged effect in supply and demand, or is only applied to some markets. But I don't know what they are, it's hard to find that data in an understandable format, if it all.

For instance, in the big debate over ethanol-to-corn, I discovered a whole controversy over HFCS (High fructose corn syrup), and the lock that ADM seems to have on it - but it is far more complicated than that... it seems that HFCS is subsidized so that it can compete with sugar, while sugar refiners are subsidized with guaranteed loans (and/or sugar buyback) if they pay too much for it, and the producers are subsidized if the price gets too low, and import quotas are made based upon the prediction how much foreign sugar is needed, so that we don't have too much (driving the price too low, which increases the subsidy to the producers, but reduces it to the refiners, but reduces it to ADM??)

I know this is waaaay off topic, so if someone knows any answers (or better questions, I've just discovered this whole debate!), please start another thread where we con continue this... either about NAFTA realities specifically, or subsidies in general, or specific subsidies, or ??? ...I really don't know enough to even know where to begin...

(and how do I make the 'off-topic' sign??)

Rick, the point you are missing here is that the proportion of Mexicans-born immigrants in the US legally is immaterial. No matter what the percentage, it's isn't reasonable to draw any conclusions about distinctions between the "legal" and "illegal" based on a study that focuses solely on one group. You have created a distinction in your mind - the "language barrier" - and then used a study that examined only one group as "proof" of your premature conclusion.

I introduced data from another study that included both groups, and showed that the "language barrier" was statistically the same among both. Mellow Julia offered evidence from a smaller sample that was directly from her own experience.

Please think about that.

The driver of illegal immigration is greed. Greed of employers, of politicians, of the Catholic Church, of the Mexican government, and of the illegal aliens of all nationalities. If an employer could move a farm, construction site, or hotel oversees to outsource to cheap labor then they would. Instead they import illegal alien labor and tell the public how 'essential' the foreign scab labor is. U.S. citizens have been reduced to tax payers and consumers (until the money runs out).

Illegal immigration is THE number one threat to our nation. China is number two. Our foreign policy fuels both threats.

Every time an uneducated foreigner illegally enters the U.S. the country doesn't expand in territory and the treasury doesn't increase in size. Both the land and the economy suffer from the strain. The illegal aliens ARE NOT essential to our economy, but they are essential to the Mexican economy due to the 25 billion ($25,000,000,000) sent home each year. If that pay went to citizens then that $25B would stay in our economy.

At the same time, the average illegal alien family consumes $3 of public services for every $1 they contribute. This amounts to a net cost of $1,800 per tax payer to pay for the public services consumed by illegal aliens. Perhaps Phil, Olyve, Mellow, and other illegal alien apologists would like to chip in to compensate the rest of us for such public largess.

It is irresponsible to discuss the consequences of illegal immigration without watching the 16 minute video "immigration gumballs" (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5871651411393887069). I would appreciate hearing from those who are all for the illegal alien invasion to rebut that video.

There are about 30 million illegal aliens in the U.S.; with about 23 million from Mexico, about 3 million from China, and the rest from other countries. The Hispanic illegals are so large in number that politicians are now trying to use them to thwart the will of the citizens. It will get ugly if the government doesn't listen and act to reduce illegal aliens in our country.

How to achieve that brings us back to the topic of this thread:

Immediately -
- Confirmation of all social security numbers being used in the U.S. (If they can send a tax bill then they can accomplish this)

- Train and expect all local law enforcement agencies to enforce immigration laws.

- Severe penalties for employers who hire illegals - fines, jail, loss of business.

- Cease birthright citizenship.

- Absolutely no public services or education for illegals. Life threatening injuries are the only exception. After a while they won't be in the country to abuse the system anyways.

- Free transportation to the border for any illegal alien needing a ride.

- Give Mastercard a contract to issue cards to all aliens entering on a visa, and then using that card at ATMs to verify their presence periodically. The card will expire at the end of the visa period and if they remain in the U.S. then they become illegal and subject to arrest.

Within 1 year -
- Any illegal aliens still in the U.S. will be arrested and will serve two years of hard labor before being returned to their country of origin.

- End the 'war on drugs' and parole nonviolent drug offenders, who are unskilled, under the condition that they take take physical menial work, take responsibility for any children they have, and take advantage of opportunities for education.
================================================

This is doable.
This will strengthen our economy and help heal our nation's culture.
Anything less will be national suicide.

That's interesting, clarkb. Could you link your source?

Oh and btw welcome back to the boards. And we do try to express our opinions without resoring to ad hominem attacks. They really detract from one's argument. I mean, besides going against our board's sense of decorum and cordiality.

US foreign policy is based in corporatism.

As Benito Mussolini correctly pointed out...
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power."

Americans tend to understand fascism to mean jack-booted thugs that resemble Hitler's SS.

Fascism however is best defined by Mussonlin's quote.

It is that fascism that has created the massive increase in undocumented workers.

They love people who will work for extremely low wages who can't vote. Contrary to what some may think, fascism is a very important component in todays immigration problem.

Trying to separate US foreign policy decisions from corporatism is like trying to separate the chocolate from chocolate milk.

Best to be careful of the fallacy of ambiguity, Roger. In Mussolini's Italia "corporatism" had a more inclusive meaning than it does today. By the way, there is doubt as to whether Mussolini ever actually said or wrote that.

SOURCE:
Yours,
Issodhos