Capitol Hill Blue Forums Life and Moral Issues Education US Schools -- a failed system?

Mellowicious :

["bold"-mine]

Teachers,nurses,doctors,fire-fighters,security guards.

"CEO'S",bankers,insurance salesmen,politicians.

"Where" do "We" "put our money"?

I have been a bit busy the last few days and have had little time to do more than quickly read the postings in this thread. What seems clear to me is that many think all that should be done is, as the saying goes, rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic while it sinks. It is also clear that some of you admit that the system “sucks”, yet you think the solution is more funding and more parent participation. The problem with this is that if a system is failing or its goals are no longer desired, one does not alleviate the problem by tweaking the system – one alleviates the problem by replacing the system with a new paradigm that will meet a new goal. There is also the usual self-contradicting claim that the teachers are dedicated but underpaid while also claiming that if better teachers are wanted then better salaries are needed. Either the teachers are getting paid what their product is worth or they are getting over-paid given the general agreement that the current system “sucks” and more pay would attract better teachers who would turn out better product. The parents are blamed for getting in the way or for not “participating” in a state approved way, or (horror of horrors) making demands rather than obediently acquiescing to the administration’s blandishments. There is also a strand of elitism flowing through the thread in that it is suggested that the “masses” are 1) not capable of educating or arranging for the education of their children and/or 2) do not care about their children getting an education, and/or 3) would educate or have them educated with a world view not acceptable to some, and/or 4) there would be no public school de facto daycare centers for the warehousing of the children of low-income or two-worker families. In other words, some fear and oppose the diversity of thought and worldview that a decentralized freedom-based approach to education would generate, and fear a loss of the socialization process available in the public school (but given what represents “socialization” in much of our culture today, I am hard-pressed to see how the loss of such would be a thing of concern).

Regardless of attempts to find and make an exception the rule, there is no controversy over the fact that the compulsory US secondary education system was modeled after the Prussian model. And there is no controversy over the fact that the system was attractive here because of its homogenizing qualities, its focus on standardization and conformity, and its usefulness in uniting a diverse immigrant population with a sense of common nationalism – all of which served both the state and business interests and only incidentally the child. As I wrote earlier, “That system had as its main goals, conformity of mind, obedience to authority, unifying citizens under the state, and training workers for an industrial world. Any frills that have since been attached do not alter its primary mission.”

To make my position clear, and to reiterate the point of this thread, I think if we want to have a nation of individuals who have a diversity of thought, skills, and knowledge, we must return the usurped (and often voluntarily relinquished) authority and responsibility for educating a child to its rightful bearer, the parent. I think the parent has the responsibility for deciding on who educates the child, where the child is educated, and what will make up the child’s curriculum. This is not without caveat. Parents that ignore this responsibility will face consequences because, while the community or local government does not have the responsibility for educating a child, it does have an interest in the parents meeting their obligation to their child.

A baby step toward undumbing the education of children would be to eliminate all legal obstacles for those who wish to home-school or privately school their children. This would mean eliminating requirements such as teaching certificates, accreditation, time requirements, compulsory attendance, and mandated curricula. Since the community has a valid interest in parents meeting their obligation to their child, annual testing of a child’s ability to read and comprehend, do general math, and exhibit a knowledge of the Constitution and America’s Founding Principles would be useful, but once a child has mastered any or all of these areas, she should be considered to have “tested out” of any further evaluation by the community.

Some demand a single template or blue print for replacing the current dismal institution of ‘education’ with a replacement system -- in other words, another “new and improved” state-run system. I would suggest instead that the marketplace would offer a plethora of choice, from a musician hired to teach music on an individual basis in her home, to a carpenter teaching carpentry in her garage in the winter when construction work is spotty (of course, any child who has expressed an interest in carpentry would have to get busy teaching herself geometry or learning it from the carpenter (an example of “linked learning” wherein one must learn onother skill as a basis for pursuing the primary interest (in this case, carpentry)). The country is full of untenured associate professors that could set up shop and accept only those who have a real interest in and aptitude for his subject – and he would be teaching in his own style without government mandate or the latest Orwellian pedagogical theory – being accountable only to the parents of his students. Given the diversity of people in America, it would be no time at all that people with skills and the desire to pass them on to an interested student would be doing so without charge to who could not afford to pay. Those are, of course only a tiny sampling of what the market could provide.

I know that I have not addressed all of the challenges presented, but it’s late and I am tired. For those of you that would like to investigate one of the more interesting concepts in educating a child, you can go to this link and read about the Unschooling approach .
Yours,
Issodhos

issodhos, cut the elitism crap will you? You make assumptions and have no basis for doing so about other posters. Really man, have some humility.

Publicly-funded schools were created in order to provide education to those who did not have the means for private tutors (an early form of home-schooling, I believe), or private schools.
That is the purpose they serve today. It wasn't the other way around, as some would seem to believe. Private schools and home-schooling existed long before there was any public education; it is because they were the only options that public education came into being.

One is perfectly free (well, free isn't exactly the word) to send a child to private school or private tutors. You can choose to educate your child at home; however, in order to protect your child's right to an education, the state - and that would be the people - have an interest in seeing that your child is actually learning something at home, and not simply being kept out of school in order to, say, work in the family business.

There are a great many private schools and there are a great many home-schoolers. As for the "musician who teaches music to individuals in her home," that model already exists - it's called private music lessons, and it's available to anyone who can afford it. As for finding a carpenter who wants to teach carpentry in the off season - that would seem a bit more rare than music teachers; it also seems rather inefficient - both the finding of the teacher and the individual lessons - and given the prevailing rate for carpenters, and the insurance they'd have to carry, probably cost-prohibitive.

But there's an alternative to private carpentry teachers; it's called a trade school. Students choose to attend trade schools of their own free will, and they learn carpentry (and/or many other things, including safety) from qualified professionals. Some are private and some are public. My nephew attended one of these and became quite a good carpenter, not to mention immediately employable.

As for Isso's statement that "annual testing of a child’s ability to read and comprehend, do general math, and exhibit a knowledge of the Constitution and America’s Founding Principles would be useful," yes, it would be useful, but in many views it would also be incomplete, as it does not include sciences other than math, any of the arts, any historical view of the world outside of the founding of the US, or any language other than English. Other people would protest my list of subjects just as I protest Issodhos' -- which is why there are things like school boards and state standards.

If the suggestion is that once taught to read and comprehend, we can educate ourselves, I suggest that perhaps those who do not work for a living several hours a day, might be able to do that - and I would suggest that the brighter of them always have. But those who work, and more certainly those who work and raise children, will find that a bit difficult.

I admit to not having read this entire thread, but parts of what I have read hit home.

Iss, actually hits some pretty good points.

I'm coming from the point of being a single working mother with two boys. Public school was fine through 5th grade(I thought) my eldest hit sixth grade and the wheels fell off the cart. Partly his fault, partly not.

I made the decision to homeschool him to remove him from what I strongly felt was a detrimental environment. Did the assesmenet testing to see where we needed to be on books etc and was horrified. While he passed the standard CRCT(annual testing for public school kids) and had earned A,B and some C's in his elementary career, I was in no way prepared for the fact that while he tested at a 6th grade level by Georgia standards, he was actually working at a 4th grade level by national standards.

Unhappy? You betcha I was unhappy! So we've been working hard to get the basics instilled in him, reading well, spelling well, writing well, and basic mathmatics. We've done hands on American history, he got first hand experience in the American political system and lessons planned around that experience, he's nto where I want him to be yet, but we're getting there, it's hard to ctch up 2 academic years in less than 8 months!

Next year, my youngest should go into 6th grade, he will not be attending public school either. I'm waiting on his assesment scores now to see where he scores against a national standard.

Am I unhappy with the local public schools? Oh yeah I am. Did I EVER dream that I'd be working to fit educating my children into an already crammed life? Not in a million years. So, I cut hours at the shop, to accomodate the schooling, my son goes with me and does lessons while I work, he's learning real life skills as well, he can actually make change without a computer telling him what it should be<G>

The home school option is available in Georgia as part of the public school system, but I can say it's not geared toward the average parent, it is geared toward those who have a decent income from one parent, with the other being stay at home. Especially the mandatory testing. I was furious to discover that in order to take the CRCT test this year, my home schooled son would be required to go to the next county, from 12:30-3:30 for 5 straight days, effectively shutting my shop for a week. Guess what? That is simply not acceptable, and frankly, unfair. No willingness to offer a local testing site, no willingness to work with schedules(hey, I'll open late to accomodate the testing, or close early but I cannot afford to close for a full week!!!) so next year we're going a different route, instead of taking advantage of the public distance learning, I'll be paying for the course work, much more flexibility, much less state input, and no bloody No Child Left Behind mandatory testing<G>

An understanding of the Constitution and founding principles is necessary for an American to understand the framework of her country and her rights. The ability to read and comprehend and to do general math is usually necessary for a person to provide for herself when grown and to participate intelligently in the electoral process as well as engage in any civic involvement she may wish to participate in. Beyond these areas, it is neither the business of the state, the community, nor her next door neighbor what she may be learning or what interests she may be pursuing.
Yours,
Issodhos

Issodhos, I disagree. I think that the quality of education, and the education of its citizens, should be a concern to all.

We have a very different view of the world, but that's not new information to either of us.

issodhos, the difficulty regarding the Constitution and founding principles is there are as many viewpoints on what that is as we have posters here. Which version should be taught? Further, why is it the business of government to teach basic math and not the other topics? It seems to me math is just of benefit to the moneyed interests.

If we are going to talk about what it takes to navigate today's society, then the subject list is much much longer.

One can certainly be concerned and express concern, but that does not translate into having the authority or right to dictate what and how another person's child is to be educated. We know what the Prussian model has given us, don't we?;-)
Yours,
Issodhos

Actually, the Constitution and our founding principles are pretty straight-forward. It only gets murky when partisan interests attempt to circumvent or subvert it for pragmatic reasons, Phil.

Please note that I never wrote that the "state" would be responsible or have the authority for 'teaching' anything. I said it would be reasonable for the community to provide an annual test in the three areas I mentioned. I have already explained why.

This is what I wrote:
"Since the community has a valid interest in parents meeting their obligation to their child, annual testing of a child’s ability to read and comprehend, do general math, and exhibit a knowledge of the Constitution and America’s Founding Principles would be useful, but once a child has mastered any or all of these areas, she should be considered to have “tested out” of any further evaluation by the community."

And please bear in mind that I proposed this as the first baby steps toward a time when there would be no more taxpayer-funded schools and no more state control over the educating of a child.
Yours,
Issodhos
p.s. As to "navigating" today's society, that seemingly has more to do with social manipulation than it does with education, and in any case, that is not the responsibility of the state -- it is the responsibility of the parent.:-)