Capitol Hill Blue Forums Political Issues The Obama Administration Stimulus package

D'oah! With all of the "bond measures" that Californians have passed in recent years is one of the major reasons our State to be in the financial mess it is in now due to the interest on said bonds that must be paid, then funding of various programs dictated by law, then other programs.

sidebar: The federal government wants to hold our dear Govenator in contempt of court for not releasing $250m for a downpayment on prision healthcare that a federal court took over from the State of California.

Thanks for your post FrazierI.

...as an aside, on Money Talk the weekend of February 7-8, Bob Brinker cited a statistic that showed those with Bachelor's degrees or better account for 3% of the unemployed. High school graduates account for 6% of the unemployed. Those with no high school diplomas account for 91% of the unemployed.

I have a bachelor's degree and make less than $50K in the Bay Area which is considered "under a living wage." With my second job at the fish market, I make just barely over $50K with is considered the minimum in the Bay Area to live decently.

So this guy "let you in" on the "fact" that $8B was in this bill for the purpose of engineering studies, and he "let you in" on the "fact" that these engineers are not middle class people, and employing them to study feasibility and implementation of high-speed mass transit would not stimulate the economy?

He's on AM radio. I wouldn't expect him to tell you the truth.

Folks here have enough sense to recognize that creating jobs for engineers creates jobs for middle class people, that "shovel ready" does not necessarily mean ready for uneducated blue-collar workers to come along and lean on their shovel handles while one of their ten co-workers operates a machine, that engineers spend money on their families just as much as anybody else in the middle class, that high-speed transit is crucial to our nation's future, and that before the shovels hit the ground, their work is absolutely essential to a successful project.

Apparently Mr. Gross (what an unfortunate name) is not aware of those things, and therefore it never occurred to him to make his listeners aware of them. Could that be the reason why he is on AM talk radio, rather than posting on the Rant?

Oh BTW. The living wage in San Francisco for a single adult is about $26K annually.

Rick, I had several more questions in that post, you picked the easiest and, even though I said there were no 'rhetorical' questions, I kind of expect most would see the 5000 jobs as being better than 1000.

What I'd really like to know is, what answers do you or anyone else have to the other questions? Particularly, will truly "shovel-ready" projects do more to stimulate the domestic economy, given that, in many cases, construction funds may go to purchase foreign materiel, equipment, etc. That may be good for the world and indirectly for us, but would you be more pleased with a shovel-ready project where 50% of the funds went to China and Japan, compared to an "engineering studies" project phase where 50% of the funds went to project engineer wages and 50% went to local communities to purchase land and right-of-way.

Just as an example.

By the way, kudos to you for actually considering that a national benefit is more reasonable than for just your own state... if only more congresscritters thought that way!

Yes.

No. I came to that conclusion on my own.

Correct, because the projects are years and years down the road. We need jobs that start Monday and repairing infastructure like schools, roads, and bridges.

Ergo the term: Shovel ready.

...better than Ashville Pirate Radio, I suppose... Besides, as you know, or as you should know stereoman, talk radio in the United States takes place on the A.M. radio band, generally.

stereoman! That is rude to suggest the "blue-collar" workers are "uneducated." Frankly, I'd rather work with a "blue-collar worker" than a "white-collared" worker.

Of course HSR is crucial to the U.S. - but it's not crucial tomorrow as "shovel ready" school repair, roads and bridges are... (IMHO)

Ouch. Why don't you call his show and ask him? 415-808-0810 M-F 2PM - 4 PM PDT.

I'm sure you and he can get in quite a discussion. He's not the type to cut you off either and he'll actually have a dialog with you.

I look forward to hearing the exchange of ideas...

Not according to a UC Berkeley study:


- also see -



...and then we have the 2003 Census for San Francisco for median family incomes:




Source


...additionally:

How People Survive in Expensive Areas

People skip essential insurance.
They take on a lot of credit card debt.
They band together as a family unit under one roof.
They rent out living space.
They delay having children.
They work several jobs.
They do work shifts within the family.
They live off their home equity.

Source

That's a really tough either/or question. Recently, the PBS show The Ascent of Money stated that globalization has caused all of the world's economies to rely on each other.

In that context, what happens to us affects the rest of the world and visa-versa.

Would I prefer that the monies stay locally? Yes.

...but given the interlocking of world economies, isn't it better that world economies be lifted together?

I couldn't even imagine living on $26K in the Bay Area - what an utterly miserable life that would be!

One thing I noticed is that payroll taxes (Federdal, State, FICA, SDI) are not factored in to this $26K figure one person "living wage" figure - why is that? This study is assuming that taxes are not paid.

..so we need to add 33% to the $26K figure - because there certainly won't be any mortgage deductions on that type of wage - no one could afford to own a house on $26K a year in the Bay Area.

My $50K figure states living comfortably meaning entertainment, one vacation a year, etc.

A very enlightened attitude, Rick!

And, I agree... although for right now, I'd rather try to focus on doing what we can for us primarily, while they do what they can for them... whoever succeeds first, will have results that naturally then help the other in such a global economy.

All in all, I do tend to agree that "things that put people to work this week", and especially lower-income jobs, are the best use of limited stimulus funds. I just want to not overlook hidden assumptions, both false positive and false negative types.

Since our country has mostly shifted away from "on-shore" manufacturing, we have lost a huge chunk of working class jobs (working in those factories) and middle class jobs (managing those operations). Instead we have a some highly-technical jobs (like engineering, science, medicine, law, finance, etc.) and most of the rest are service industry jobs.

Just about all the engineers I know are still working, and in fact getting the same pay they were last year. (Some even got a year-end bonus.) These are the people companies don't want to lose even if their projects are cancelled, because when things do turn around a team of new hires won't have the knowledge base needed to execute quickly.

The car salesmen, on the other hand, are totally screwed: I have friends-of friends who both have been laid off from their car dealorship jobs, now looking at foreclosure. I have a brother-in-law who is a licensed General Contractor specialising in high-end remodeling and renovation, now reduced to installing fences around my property to avoid bankruptcy.

I think the contraction in the construction industries have caused the most pain in California. These guys (and gals) were the one big pool of non-service employees and contractors we had left, but now are in seriously deep s--t. They were a major conduit from big business and finance right into all the local economies, but now they are not buying cars and trucks, not spending the money they no longer have, and even losing their homes. With these customers gone, businesses large and small are laying off some of their work force too, or just closing their doors.

One thing that really stood out for me in the original article of this thread, is that the California High Speed Rail project is perhaps the most "shovel-ready" of such projects in the nation. The stimulus money could create many construction jobs, even if they are not exactly those the home construction industry lost. But even so a drywaller can learn to work with concrete or stucco, a residential plumber can install restrooms in train stations (or even in new train cars), heavy equipment operators can grade and compact railbeds, etc. So I think the HSR project could be a big boost for the San Diego to Bay Area economies.

Hmm. Here I thought you'd put "under a living wage" in quotes because you meant to use the term in its technical sense, rather than your own personal interpretation that "living wage" is the same thing as "living comfortably". My bad.

You noted that your yearly income is fully three-fourths as much as the median income for a family of four in San Francisco, and two-thirds as much as necessary for expenses for a family of four in SF, so I would say your wages are indeed "comfortable".

Now right below that pie chart in the source you cited, it says:
So what is your quibble with the source I quoted? That it's not very pleasant trying to live on a "living wage"? I agree! And yet millions of Americans make less than a living wage - most of them uneducated service workers.