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Dec 6th, 2017
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Joined: Mar 1999
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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So the assumption I make is that every time a crime is successfully foiled by a firearm, it becomes a news item, just as every time a rocket is fired from the Occupied Territories into Israel, we hear about it, or every time a nativity scene is prohibited on public property. Faulty logic, stereoman. As I posted earlier, "So its opinion, then. A few problems here, stereoman. With your first opinion, it does not seem to take into account those times when the mere presence of a firearm deters a "bad guy", the type of thing that would not beome "national news", and surely happens more often than any actual use of a firearm - i mean based on mathematical probability. As to the hundreds of folks you say are assaulted everyday, are these hundreds of folks armed? Are most of them armed? Or are most of them actually without a firearm? That would be important to note if it is to support your argument. I think a professor from Maryland University name of John Lott may have done a study on guns in society and their defensive usage. If I find a link to his work I'll post it.:-)" Yours, Issodhos Isso, I posted Lott's site on post #104658. The other hole in Stereo's assumption is that he is aware of every act of self defense in which a gun is and is not used and knowing those numbers is able to determine which are reported and unreported. As a side note I would add that statistics do tell us that gun owners with a CCW are a very law abiding group of citizens. Very few people with CCW permits have them revoked for any reason.
____________________
You, you and you, panic. The rest of you follow me.
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Joined: Sep 2005
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Sep 2005
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I'll join Emma and Olyve on this one and go gunless...just as I have all my life. Which includes plenty of walking alone to the subways/trains at night in NYC. Interesting that, at least on this thread, the women will take their chances, while most of the men seem to need the protection of a gun. Almost Naomi, this thread was supposed to be about the hypocrisy of pols who are opposed to or seek to severely limit the right to the private ownership and use of firearms. It was not about guns used in defense. Those seeking to ban private gun ownership like to reduce firearms ownership to this false argument because they can then avoid the principled, moral, political, and philosophical argument in support of the right to the private ownership and use of firearms, and instead "debate" the effectiveness of guns as defense ad infinitum. You will note that no one has suggested that anyone else should carry, own, or use a firearm if they do not wish to do so. The argument from those who oppose having an individual right taken from them is that you should be free to exercise your right to own and use a private firearm if you wish to do so. So, was the sexist, cheap shot in your last sentence necessary? Yours, Issodhos
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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Joined: Sep 2005
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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We know of course that an person with inherent bias can easily manipulate data... either consciously or not. If I recall correctly, when he produced his study he was not a gun owner and had little interest in being one. So, how biased he was at the time, who can say? Bear in mind that I was going to provide stereoman with a link to Lott's work because he might be interested in it relative to the claims of logic stereoman made in a post regarding defensive use of handguns. As to Lott having critics, well, that is hardly surprising. He also has supporters. The work was immediately controversial, drawing large amounts of support and opposition. Numerous academics praised Lott's methodology, including Florida State University economist Bruce Benson,[10] Cardozo School of Law professor John O. McGinnis,[11] and University of Mississippi professor William F. Shughart.[12] The book also received favorable reviews from academics Gary Kleck, Milton Friedman, and Thomas Sowell.
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Referring to the research done on the topic, The Chronicle of Higher Education reported that while most researchers support Lott's findings that right-to-carry laws reduce violent crime, some researchers doubt that concealed carry laws have any impact on violent crime, saying however that "Mr. Lott's research has convinced his peers of at least one point: No scholars now claim that legalizing concealed weapons causes a major increase in crime. As to the 2003 article by MotherJones? Puh_lese. MotherJones? John Lott is still at work in 2008. John Richard Lott Jr. (born May 8, 1958) is a senior research scientist at the University of Maryland, College Park. He has previously held research positions at other academic institutions including the University of Chicago, Yale University, the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania, and the American Enterprise Institute. He holds a Ph.D. in economics from UCLA, and his areas of research include econometrics, law and economics, public choice theory, industrial organization, public finance, microeconomics, labor economics, and environmental regulation. I have no reason to think that because he has critics, it means his work is substantially flawed. Yours, Issodhos
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,581
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Sep 2005
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As a side note I would add that statistics do tell us that gun owners with a CCW are a very law abiding group of citizens. Very few people with CCW permits have them revoked for any reason. That is also what I have read, Slipped (and does that ever upset the gunowner-hating crowd:-). And thanks for the link. Yours, Issodhos
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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Joined: Sep 2007
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member
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That is also what I have read, Slipped (and does that ever upset the gunowner-hating crowd:-). Who is that crowd that hates gun owners?
"I believe very deeply that compassion is the route not only for the evolution of the full human being, but for the very survival of the human race." —The Dalai Lama
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 15,646
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 15,646 |
Did you read the entire worldnetdaily article? About midway through, it mentions AG Holder opining before the Supreme Court that no-one has a right to own a funtioning firearm. It's an opinion piece, Allen. Find a primary source that shows what Holder "opined before the Supreme Court" and then we can discuss the credibility of worldnet's second-hand report of someone else's opinion.
Steve Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love,
to respect and be kind to one another,
so that we may grow with peace in mind.
(Native American prayer)
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 15,646
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 15,646 |
Are most of them armed? Or are most of them actually without a firearm? That would be important to note if it is to support your argument. No, it wouldn't be important. My argument is related to the statement by Rep. Pelosi in the opening post that she would prevent harm to her person by "taking out" an assailant. Such an action requires the actual use of a firearm, not its mere presence.
Steve Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love,
to respect and be kind to one another,
so that we may grow with peace in mind.
(Native American prayer)
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 15,646
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 15,646 |
Those seeking to ban private gun ownership like to reduce firearms ownership to this false argument because they can then avoid the principled, moral, political, and philosophical argument in support of the right to the private ownership and use of firearms, and instead "debate" the effectiveness of guns as defense ad infinitum. Please provide evidence that anyone involved in this discussion, or the national level discussion, "seeks to ban private gun ownership".
Steve Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love,
to respect and be kind to one another,
so that we may grow with peace in mind.
(Native American prayer)
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 15,646
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 15,646 |
As to the 2003 article by MotherJones? Puh_lese. MotherJones? Perhaps you missed this citation from Yale Law School, or this one from the Journal of Legal Studies, or this one from the National Academy of Science? Mother Jones does a heck of a lot better investigative reporting than world nut daily! 
Steve Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love,
to respect and be kind to one another,
so that we may grow with peace in mind.
(Native American prayer)
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 15,646
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 15,646 |
(and does that ever upset the gunowner-hating crowd:-). Does it? Can you provide any evidence that anyone involved in this discussion or any significant interest group in the discussion at the national level is a "gunowner-hating crowd"?
Steve Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love,
to respect and be kind to one another,
so that we may grow with peace in mind.
(Native American prayer)
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