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Originally Posted by stereoman
Please provide evidence that anyone involved in this discussion, or the national level discussion, "seeks to ban private gun ownership".

Originally Posted by issodhos
Anyone advocating a prohibitive tax on ammunition that would result in only the wealthy few being able to use a firearm, are engaged in supporting a defacto ban of firearms, stereoman.

Originally Posted by stereoman
Oh. I should have realized that you would create your own definition, since no generally accepted definition would fit. My bad.

Sometimes reality intrudes.;-)


Originally Posted by issodhos
It would maybe be relevant if I were defending John Lott's work in this thread, or if I was using it to support an argument I was making, but i am not.
Quote
So you brought up Lott's study as a red herring. Ah, good. Glad to have that out of the way.

I said I would try to find a link to his work for you to look over. I did not use him in support of an argument. You expanded it into a red herring. I simply pointed it out.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos

Last edited by issodhos; 03/23/09 06:51 PM.

"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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Originally Posted by Slipped Mickey
Here's something for everyone to consider:

If you don't believe that the simple fact that someone might be armed is indeed a deterrent and if you'd never own a gun then I suggest you encourage others to do the same by doing the following:

Wear a shirt or a pin that says something to the effect that you do not support gun ownership and that you are not armed.

Place a sticker on you car window saying that the occupants do not support gun ownership and are not armed.

Place a sign in your window at home saying that you do not support gun ownership and that there are no guns in the house.


Would you do it? I damned sure wouldn't. I doubt anyone here would. I doubt anyone here will respond and admit that they wouldn't dare do it. The simple fact is that you could be armed is a deterrent. Everyone here knows that, whether you want to admit it or not.
Oh I do believe that someone who is armed is a deterrent.
I just can't abide by that philosophy of being afraid and looking.

NO!
I wouldn't wear a statement like that on my t shirt or sticker on my car.
Crikey, although I agree most gun owners are nice smile
there are gun owner nuts out there who would definitely react to my 'activism' by advertising that I don't particularly like guns or think them helpful in my life.



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Originally Posted by Slipped Mickey
[b]Wear a shirt or a pin that says something to the effect that you do not support gun ownership and that you are not armed.

One wonders if there is any potential middle ground between being absolutely opposed to any gun ownership at any time by any citizen at any time ever..... and the position that any regulation of any sort that impacts gun ownership and sales in any way is the fatal first step on the slippery slope to the absolute and universal abolition of all gun ownership.





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Originally Posted by olyve
Originally Posted by Slipped Mickey
Place a sign in your window at home saying that you do not support gun ownership and that there are no guns in the house.
I wouldn't wear a statement like that on my t shirt or sticker on my car.
It occurs to me that many businesses now have decals on their doors indicating that firearms are not welcome there.

I wonder if anyone has studied data on crimes committed in such businesses, compared to the norm.


Steve
Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love,
to respect and be kind to one another,
so that we may grow with peace in mind.

(Native American prayer)

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Originally Posted by Ardy
One wonders if there is any potential middle ground between being absolutely opposed to any gun ownership at any time by any citizen at any time ever..... and the position that any regulation of any sort that impacts gun ownership and sales in any way is the fatal first step on the slippery slope to the absolute and universal abolition of all gun ownership.
A similar question could be posed in regards to alcoholic beverages.


Steve
Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love,
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so that we may grow with peace in mind.

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Originally Posted by Ardy
One wonders if there is any potential middle ground between being absolutely opposed to any gun ownership at any time by any citizen at any time ever..... and the position that any regulation of any sort that impacts gun ownership and sales in any way is the fatal first step on the slippery slope to the absolute and universal abolition of all gun ownership.

The states and the Fed have laws on the books now that restrict the right to the private ownership and use of firearms. The current goal of anti-gunowner organizations is to put more laws on the books restricting the right to the private ownership and use of firearms.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos


"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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Originally Posted by stereoman
Originally Posted by olyve
Originally Posted by Slipped Mickey
Place a sign in your window at home saying that you do not support gun ownership and that there are no guns in the house.
I wouldn't wear a statement like that on my t shirt or sticker on my car.
It occurs to me that many businesses now have decals on their doors indicating that firearms are not welcome there.

I wonder if anyone has studied data on crimes committed in such businesses, compared to the norm.

It would be interesting to see. At the same time I'd like to know if any store owners have signs saying "No Guns Allowed" followed by "The Owner and Employees of this store are not armed" and see what the data would be on such businesses.

Announcing that guns are not permitted and announcing that a person is unarmed, or that a vehicle, residence or a place of business is not protected by firearms are two entirely different things.

If a tweaking meth freak decides he's going to rob a dry cleaner or a bowling alley or a gas station or a sandwich shop does anyone seriously think that meth freak is going to honor the "no guns allowed" signs? Oh, hey'll no!!!!

How many gun owners with a CCW have committed gun crimes anywhere? Damned few. So a gun owner who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon carrying legally in a store is statistically no threat to anyone in the store or to the business itself and may in fact be a deterrent, while people intent on breaking the law while in possession of a firearm don't give a damn about "no guns allowed" signs.

What person however would put up signs saying "I am not armed", "there are no guns in this house", "there are no guns in this vehicle", "there are no guns in this business"? The answer of course is that no one would be so completely stupid as to do that.

No gun allowed signs are nothing more than a talisman, a modern day mojo to ward off the evil spirits. No gun signs in essence keep good guns out and let bad guns in. I'll have to check but I doubt guns were allowed on campus at Virginia Tech when students were massacred.


In Miami after Hurricane whatever, I get my hurricanes mixed up, parts of the city were wiped out. Homestead, just south of Miami was a disaster. Looters were going crazy. Police couldn't even begin to protect everyone. I was there. I saw a few houses or parts of houses with signs saying "You Loot, We Shoot." No where did I see a sign saying "This business is not protected by guns". I wonder why that was?


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Originally Posted by stereoman
It occurs to me that many businesses now have decals on their doors indicating that firearms are not welcome there.

I wonder if anyone has studied data on crimes committed in such businesses, compared to the norm.

I would think that there is no crime (at least no crime involving a gun) in such businesses because no one would take a gun into an establishment that has prohibited such an action.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos


"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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Originally Posted by Slipped Mickey
Announcing that guns are not permitted and announcing that a person is unarmed, or that a vehicle, residence or a place of business is not protected by firearms are two entirely different things.
Is that in fact true? If a business establishment prohibits firearms on the premises, are the employees exempt?

Originally Posted by Slipped Mickey
If a tweaking meth freak decides he's going to rob a dry cleaner or a bowling alley or a gas station or a sandwich shop does anyone seriously think that meth freak is going to honor the "no guns allowed" signs? Oh, hey'll no!!!!
There's a lot of truth in that. Similarly, a sign on the door stating that this establishment is insured my Smith and Wesson is not likely to be a deterrent either.

Originally Posted by Slipped Mickey
So a gun owner who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon carrying legally in a store is statistically no threat to anyone in the store or to the business itself and may in fact be a deterrent
Not sure I follow your logic here. If the weapon is concealed, how can it be a deterrent?

Originally Posted by Slipped Mickey
I'll have to check but I doubt guns were allowed on campus at Virginia Tech when students were massacred.
No doubt there were no guns allowed at Columbine High School either. But we need to have a basis of comparison in order to draw a conclusion as to cause and effect - for example, the comparative rate of violent crime on college campuses where guns are prohibited versus college campuses where guns are not prohibited.

Originally Posted by Slipped Mickey
I wonder why that was?
Perhaps it signifies the relationship between reliance on violence and the catastrophic breakdown of civilization.


Steve
Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love,
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so that we may grow with peace in mind.

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This gun thing baffles me.

Am I correct to interpret the position of those who oppose regulation of guns to the effect that if citizens are allowed to have whatever guns they wish it will either have no effect on the rate of crime or will suppress it?

If the latter, is that because more criminals will be killed by law abiding citizens or because criminals will be less likely to commit crimes because they don't know who is loaded and who not?

Any factual backup for any position?


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