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Originally Posted by stereoman
But we need to have a basis of comparison in order to draw a conclusion as to cause and effect - for example, the comparative rate of violent crime on college campuses where guns are prohibited versus college campuses where guns are not prohibited.

Probably would not be much of a sampling, because, if memory serves, it has been reported that the only two colleges that allow handguns (or is it firearms in general?) on campus are Blue Ridge Community College in Virginia and Brigham Young University in Utah.
Yours,
Issodhos


"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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Originally Posted by issodhos
The current goal of anti-gunowner organizations is to put more laws on the books restricting the right to the private ownership and use of firearms.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos

Which anti-gunowner organizations are you referring to?


"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
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Originally Posted by Ardy
Originally Posted by issodhos
The current goal of anti-gunowner organizations is to put more laws on the books restricting the right to the private ownership and use of firearms.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos

Which anti-gunowner organizations are you referring to?

Oh, the Brady Campaign, the Million Mom March organization, Violence Policy Cener, International Voice Against Gun Violence, etc.

If you wish, a quick google here turned up these, as well.
Yours,
Issodhos
P.s. You ain't referrin' to me spoofin' the "haters" by gratuitously using the term "anti-gunowners" air ya, Ardy?;-)

Last edited by issodhos; 03/27/09 11:22 PM. Reason: typo

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Iss
Thx for the link. I went there looking for anti gun owner organizations.... and found the following

Quote
American Bar Association's Coordinating Committee on Gun Violence

American Hunters and Shooters Association - Supports gun safety proposals

American Jewish Congress

Americans for Gun Safety –

.
Ammunition Accountabililty –

Archive of Tim Lambert's Postings on Gun Control –


BB Guns - FAQs and articles mainly concerned with the dangers of BB guns.


Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence –


Brandon's Arms - News and opinion regarding an effort to dismantle Bryco Arms.
A Case for Gun Control - Short essay justifying the need for gun control.


Ceasefire Maryland - Statewide, non-profit organization aiming for a reduction of violence through education and handgun controls.


Ceasefire, Oregon - Building safe and healthy communities free from gun violence in Oregon.


Ceasefire, Washington - State-wide, grass-roots organization dedicated to ending gun violence.

Coalition to Stop Gun Violence/Educational Fund to Stop Gun Violence

Common Sense About Kids and Guns –

Connecticut Against Gun Violence –

Firearms Law Center - Federal, state and local firearms law summaries, Second Amendment federal case law summaries, and updates on promising new regulatory strategies nationwide.


Freedom States Alliance - Organization, funded by the Joyce Foundation, to reduce gun violence.



Gun Guys - News and gun culture satire.


Gunfree - Home of the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, and the Educational Fund to End Handgun Violence.


GunFreeKids.org –

Hoosiers Concerned About Gun Violence - Online newsletter.


Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence - "Works to reduce death and injury caused by the easy accessibility of firearms in our society."

Iowans for the Prevention of Gun Violence

Legal Community Against Violence –

Maine Citizens Against Handgun Violence –

Mayors Against Illegal Guns –

Mothers Against Guns - Committed to ending gun violence in our communities, and our nation by continuing to raise public awareness of the effect gun violence has on our lives.



New Yorkers Against Gun Violence –

North Carolinians Against Gun Violence –

Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence –


Protest Easy Guns - Gun fact videos, list of protest locations, and tips on how to organize your own protest.


Sane Guns - Provides statistics, news, commentary, and historical information and analysis.
South Texas Million Moms - Promotes adoption of gun laws, and provides support for victims and survivors of gun trauma.

States United to Prevent Gun Violence - State directory of gun violence prevention groups and members only area.


Stop Our Shootings - A survivor's story about the accidental shooting of 12 year old

Texans for Gun Safety –

The Truth About Gun Control and the Second Amendment - A brief and narrow, myth versus fact presentation of the gun control debate.

Violence Policy Center - A national educational foundation working to enhance gun control in America.

Violence Prevention Research Project –

Virginia Center for Public Safety -

I could be wrong, but they seem not at all anti gun owner.

Actually, they seem to be mostly concerned about things like gun violence, etc.


"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel
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Originally Posted by stereoman
Originally Posted by Slipped Mickey
Announcing that guns are not permitted and announcing that a person is unarmed, or that a vehicle, residence or a place of business is not protected by firearms are two entirely different things.

Quote
Is that in fact true? If a business establishment prohibits firearms on the premises, are the employees exempt?

It depends on the business and the owner. We can't know for certain and that alone is a deterrent. The fact remains that unless the owner has a sign saying that the owner and employees are not armed they may in fact be armed.

Originally Posted by Slipped Mickey
If a tweaking meth freak decides he's going to rob a dry cleaner or a bowling alley or a gas station or a sandwich shop does anyone seriously think that meth freak is going to honor the "no guns allowed" signs? Oh, hey'll no!!!!

Quote
There's a lot of truth in that. Similarly, a sign on the door stating that this establishment is insured my Smith and Wesson is not likely to be a deterrent either.

Au contraire, I would submit that many people intent on robbery and mayhem will in fact pick their target with a number of factors in mind. A primary factor is the ease with which the bad guys can accomplish their objective. In most cases I would suggest that the criminals pick the softer targets. "Protected by Smith & Wesson" on the door of a business would give bad guys pause, no? They'd perhaps look for a target less threatening. I'm fairly certain they'd be more likely to choose the business with "The owners and employees within are unarmed" sign.

People who want to do harm and rob other people graze among what they perceive to be the most vulnerable. It's why you never see someone intent on a massacre walking into a police station with the idea of taking out dozens of people. Suicidal killers with massacre on their minds just aren't that feckin crazy.

Originally Posted by Slipped Mickey
So a gun owner who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon carrying legally in a store is statistically no threat to anyone in the store or to the business itself and may in fact be a deterrent

Quote
Not sure I follow your logic here. If the weapon is concealed, how can it be a deterrent?

Sorry, I wasn't clear. My point is that if the owner of an establishment has no problem with a person entering his establishment with guns - by not posting a NO GUNS ALLOWED sign - then you must assume that at any given time someone in the business (the owner, employees, clients or customers) is carrying a concealed weapon if they don't open carry, which you see more of here than you would back east.

Originally Posted by Slipped Mickey
I'll have to check but I doubt guns were allowed on campus at Virginia Tech when students were massacred.

Quote
No doubt there were no guns allowed at Columbine High School either. But we need to have a basis of comparison in order to draw a conclusion as to cause and effect - for example, the comparative rate of violent crime on college campuses where guns are prohibited versus college campuses where guns are not prohibited.

Point taken, and I believe Isso answered it. I would say, however, that given the gift of hindsight those who were present at Virginia Tech during the rampage would liked to have been armed on that horrible day.

Originally Posted by Slipped Mickey
I wonder why that was?
Perhaps it signifies the relationship between reliance on violence and the catastrophic breakdown of civilization.

It may. Given the choice I'd love to live in a firearm free world and I'd settle for a firearm free country. That, unfortunately, is not an option for Americans. We cannot undo our history. America was founded by hard nosed survivalists, fighters and individualists. We come from warrior stock by and large. I'm not making a value judgement. It just is.


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Originally Posted by Ardy
Iss
Thx for the link. I went there looking for anti gun owner organizations.... and found the following

Quote
American Bar Association's Coordinating Committee on Gun Violence

American Hunters and Shooters Association - Supports gun safety proposals

American Jewish Congress

Americans for Gun Safety –

.
Ammunition Accountabililty –

Archive of Tim Lambert's Postings on Gun Control –


BB Guns - FAQs and articles mainly concerned with the dangers of BB guns.


Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence –


Brandon's Arms - News and opinion regarding an effort to dismantle Bryco Arms.
A Case for Gun Control - Short essay justifying the need for gun control.


Ceasefire Maryland - Statewide, non-profit organization aiming for a reduction of violence through education and handgun controls.


Ceasefire, Oregon - Building safe and healthy communities free from gun violence in Oregon.


Ceasefire, Washington - State-wide, grass-roots organization dedicated to ending gun violence.

Coalition to Stop Gun Violence/Educational Fund to Stop Gun Violence

Common Sense About Kids and Guns –

Connecticut Against Gun Violence –

Firearms Law Center - Federal, state and local firearms law summaries, Second Amendment federal case law summaries, and updates on promising new regulatory strategies nationwide.


Freedom States Alliance - Organization, funded by the Joyce Foundation, to reduce gun violence.



Gun Guys - News and gun culture satire.


Gunfree - Home of the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, and the Educational Fund to End Handgun Violence.


GunFreeKids.org –

Hoosiers Concerned About Gun Violence - Online newsletter.


Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence - "Works to reduce death and injury caused by the easy accessibility of firearms in our society."

Iowans for the Prevention of Gun Violence

Legal Community Against Violence –

Maine Citizens Against Handgun Violence –

Mayors Against Illegal Guns –

Mothers Against Guns - Committed to ending gun violence in our communities, and our nation by continuing to raise public awareness of the effect gun violence has on our lives.



New Yorkers Against Gun Violence –

North Carolinians Against Gun Violence –

Ohio Coalition Against Gun Violence –


Protest Easy Guns - Gun fact videos, list of protest locations, and tips on how to organize your own protest.


Sane Guns - Provides statistics, news, commentary, and historical information and analysis.
South Texas Million Moms - Promotes adoption of gun laws, and provides support for victims and survivors of gun trauma.

States United to Prevent Gun Violence - State directory of gun violence prevention groups and members only area.


Stop Our Shootings - A survivor's story about the accidental shooting of 12 year old

Texans for Gun Safety –

The Truth About Gun Control and the Second Amendment - A brief and narrow, myth versus fact presentation of the gun control debate.

Violence Policy Center - A national educational foundation working to enhance gun control in America.

Violence Prevention Research Project –

Virginia Center for Public Safety -

I could be wrong, but they seem not at all anti gun owner.

Actually, they seem to be mostly concerned about things like gun violence, etc.

I couldn't say that they speak in concert, Ardy. In fact, some are fairly radical to my way of thinking.

If I am going camping in the wilderness or desert for a week (not sleeping in campgrounds) I'm taking a firearm. Wouldn't you? Would all the above organizations support my doing that?

A woman here in Arizona who worked for the state divorced her husband because he beat the living hell out her. After she got out of the hospital she got out of the house and the marriage. Her husband was arrested and posted bond, then he disappeared. He couldn't call her at home or on her cell because she changed her cell phone and she lived with people unknown to her husband. Suddenly he began calling her at work and threatening her. She saw him standing across the parking lot looking at her one day when she left work.

The woman was reported to have a well established job. She was essentially homeless while waiting for the divorce to be settled. She needed the job. Police did escort her to and from her car to her office. Once she left the office parking lot she was on her own.

The woman got a CCW and bought a semi-auto. The state would not permit her to carry the weapon on state property - even in her car. She couldn't park in the state parking lot. If she parked far enough away on a public street she couldn't be assured of a parking space and the police couldn't escort her.

In the newspaper article I read about her she was quoted as saying that she should never have asked for an exception from the state. She said, given the outcome she would have carried and just kept her mouth shut. I have to say that I don't know what position the above organizations would take. Can you tell me?


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Originally Posted by issodhos
Probably would not be much of a sampling, because, if memory serves, it has been reported that the only two colleges that allow handguns (or is it firearms in general?) on campus are Blue Ridge Community College in Virginia and Brigham Young University in Utah.
Wow, no kidding! Hmm. Well then, college campuses would make for a great example of what happens to violent crime when guns are banned, wouldn't they? Shall we compare the incidence of violent crime on college campuses to the incidence of violent crime among the general urban populations?


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to respect and be kind to one another,
so that we may grow with peace in mind.

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Originally Posted by Slipped Mickey
Given the choice I'd love to live in a firearm free world and I'd settle for a firearm free country.
OMG! shocked Slipped Mickey is anti-gun!!!

Just kidding. I mean, I understand where you're coming from - you've made it clear all along, and I think your position is shared by many gun owners. Although I believe someone earlier on (iss?) made the assertion that the whole "I'm carrying heat to protect myself from bad guys who carry heat" is a canard. Which I agreed with. That was, actually, the claim made by the two hypocrites in the opening post, remember?

I have no doubt that you would be loathe to use deadly force against anyone for any reason, and would not draw a firearm unless you felt certain there was no other alternative. I might do the same if I were in the same position and carrying. Which is one more reason why I would never carry.

Originally Posted by Slipped Mickey
It depends on the business and the owner. We can't know for certain and that alone is a deterrent. The fact remains that unless the owner has a sign saying that the owner and employees are not armed they may in fact be armed.

[SNIP]

"Protected by Smith & Wesson" on the door of a business would give bad guys pause, no? They'd perhaps look for a target less threatening. I'm fairly certain they'd be more likely to choose the business with "The owners and employees within are unarmed" sign.
Here's where we need to be looking at actual data. But remember, your original example was about a meth freak on a rampage, not about a criminal enterprise carefully planning a heist. That's what I was responding to.


Steve
Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love,
to respect and be kind to one another,
so that we may grow with peace in mind.

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Originally Posted by stereoman
Originally Posted by issodhos
Probably would not be much of a sampling, because, if memory serves, it has been reported that the only two colleges that allow handguns (or is it firearms in general?) on campus are Blue Ridge Community College in Virginia and Brigham Young University in Utah.
Wow, no kidding! Hmm. Well then, college campuses would make for a great example of what happens to violent crime when guns are banned, wouldn't they? Shall we compare the incidence of violent crime on college campuses to the incidence of violent crime among the general urban populations?

Why would I care about such a comparison, stereoman? I have not made an arguement for or against firearms on campus.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos


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Originally Posted by Ardy
Iss
Thx for the link. I went there looking for anti gun owner organizations.... and found the following

Ah hah. So it was my spoofing the "haters" with the term "anti-gunowner". How prescient of me.;-)
Yours in a laid-back, easygoing, live and let live frame o' mind,
Issodhos


"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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