Capitol Hill Blue Forums Political Issues Guns When Gun Control Freaks Go Wild:-)

Actually, I was referring to Jose Ortega y Gasset's "Mass Man", but, in the end he to will probably be the victor. Bummer.
Yours,
Issodhos

I think that you must not have looked at the links which I provided; how else could you be so confident in your contempt for Chinese civilization?

The long history of China has been outstandingly progressive, and is marked by great superiority in most of the accomplishments which are generally regarded as being the mark of civilization.

However, I will grant you that in recent centuries China has receded from its traditional high levels of superiority to the West.

And what was responsible for this decline? Well, it was the fault of Western "civilization"! though, unusually, in this case the evil was quite unintentional.

European exploration of the New World led to the discovery of many new and important foodstuffs. These were soon introduced to China. Maize, potatoes, sweet potatoes, beans, chilis and many more food plants led to an explosive rise in population in China. In 1500 the population of China was about 100 million, not much more than it had been for the previous thousand years. By 1700 the population had almost doubled, and by 1800 it had doubled again.

Apart from the misery and economic dislocation which too rapid a rise in population usually provokes, it also led to the situation which sinologists call the "high equilibrium trap." At a certain point, it becomes cheaper to employ super-abundant human labor than go to the expense of building expensive machines and creating further technical innovation. China ceased to maintain its technical superiority to the rest of the world, stagnated, and became vulnerable to brutal exploitation by the West.

And now it appears the shoe may be moving to the other foot.
What goes around comes around, eh?
Will the day come when Americans work in sweatshops making gizmos to ship overseas to Chinese superconsumers?
What has all this got to do with Gun Control Freaks? It's far more interesting so, please, remain off topic if you wish.

I have been feeling a bit of bad conscience at my excursus into things Chinese on this thread, but have consoled myself that it was simply a longish preamble to some relevant remarks about gun control.

There have been many analogues to the "high equilibrium trap" in human history and current affairs. People start out doing things in utter ignorance of the consequences of their actions, and the demonic force of "unintended consequences" makes a mockery of their deepest values.

That is why one of my strongest principles is to do nothing, whenever possible. I am deeply aware that "the devil makes work for idle hands," so I eschew the devil and all his works, and try valiantly to keep my hands as idle as possible.

Consider the titans of industry in the nineteenth century: imagine the horror of such vigorous, independent capitalists if they could have known what so-called "capitalism" turned into little more than a century after their time. How their skins would have crawled at the sight of the hidebound, inefficent, bureaucratic multi-national monopolies which spread havoc and terror all over the world! Not only did they not foresee the monstrous results of their labors, but these horrible results would have been utterly inconceivable to them!

But the evils of unintended consequences are not the end of the story. Every system of corruption acquires an army of supporters who depend upon it for sustenance.

Thus the unintended consequence of the Second World War was to saddle the United States with the narcotic addiction of military spending, and with far-from-the-battlefront armies of war profiteers feeding like vampires on the blood of the American people: a people which such a short time ago had traditionally detested war and foreign entanglements, and had been almost as anti-militaristic as the Chinese themselves!

And in this newly born militaristic, totalitarian, war-spending-addicted America arose cheerleaders of the gun culture, the National Rifle Association and their ilk, the noisy penumbra of militarism.

Such people revere the embalmed remains of the Second Amendment (which often seems to be the only part of the Constitution they really care about), and they are full of never-ending praise for the Founding Fathers and their semi-divine insight into protecting the rights of their distant progeny to blast holes into bullseyes, and, occasionally, into their own progeny.

In fact, the Founding Fathers were scoundrels and traitors, but they were 18th century gentlemen, reasonably educated, and not without some fundamental good sense.

Eighteenth century gentlemen, almost without exception, detested disorder, especially among the lower classes. There is no doubt in my mind that if they had been able to foresee Uzis and AK-47's broadcast hither-and-yon over this country, with little or no control by a "well-regulated militia," available to irresponsible, untrained oafs, then they would have been sick to their stomachs at the results of their ill-considered nation-building, and heartily ashamed of their Second Amendment.

Numan, you speak my mind so very well and so much better than I could myself.

Well, when faced with the superiority of Western Civilization, the also-rans would, like most children, point their fingers in childish blame. It is a given for a transcendent civilization.:-)

And if Chinese society had not stagnated centuries ago at such a low level of economic creativity, and instead had it developed to a point where their society could prosper through economic specialization, it would not have remained tied to an agrarian baby-maker society that relied on children as field workers and retirement security.

Even so, Chinese culture and Eastern Civilization in general do have a few bits that rise above the level of curio and attain the status of interesting.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos

The issue seems to boil down to this: Do you trust the government or don't you? Gun control proponents(liberals, I guess) seem to have a rather naive trust in goverment when demicans are in control and rail against the "man" when the republicrats are in control. Government is at best, laughably inept(this includes the military. I know this for a fact, I was in the army for a time) and therefore, should not be allowed to do much of anything, lest they break it, and at worst, a horrible regime that should be destroyed utterly, one way or another. I prefer the kind that can't do much and therefore stays out of my way and leaves me alone. And has a low tax burden. I have been told that the notion of armed resistance against a tyrannical regime is preposterous, so I don't know what to make of the Revolutionary war...or the Vietnam war...or the Afghan's uncanny ability to defeat empire after empire that tries to subjugate them...or the Scots in the 13th-14th century.

I'm not proposing we all arm ourslves and invade DC, I just want to have the means at my disposal. It seems to make the government types nervous,all those armed folk out there who may one day,after being treated like serfs for far too long, rise up, and, well, kill them.

There are about 52 million households with at least one gun. SOURCE I don't know how accurate that is. I googled a search term, saw that, and grabbed it.

I have no idea how many of them are the "hardcore" types who won't give up their guns no matter what. Probably a large number. So any attempts to actually consficate guns would be futile, and probably bloody. I can't imagine people living in say ,West (by God) Virginia giving them up without a fight.

I don't trust the government, and it doesn't matter to me what wing of the same bird is in control. They are all the same,and until people come to realize it, we will be doing this dance again. Only then it will be with the republicrats ,and then conservatives(I guess) will have the naive trust in government and will accuse us of being unpatriotic if we don't go for their hairbrained schemes.

I am sick of this whole left/right, liberal/conservative bullcrap. This stupid, insane dualistic mentality that everyone else seems unable or unwilling to divest themselves of. I have seen this country slide deeper and deeper into some kind of Orwellian nightmare since at least 2001 and it's just getting worse and worse. The Department of Homeland Security. "Homeland"!!?? WTF? Whiffs of Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. Warrentless wiretapping? WTF? Torture? Good God, why? Didn't we hang men at Nuremburg for such as that? Real ID? Great, I am going to have some uniformed thug demand my papers at random? And I dont see the Obama administration doing anything different. Especially since they seem reluctant to, you know, prosecute the people responsible for all this crap. The reason? Maybe they intend to do the same thing.

It's this "Big Government" bull that makes me want to leave the US, but it seems to be everywhere. I have nowhere to go.

We seem to be losing more and more freedom, and we have a portion of the citizenry who seem willing to give up what might, at the very end, be the only thing we have to take back the country. "We the People" are the militia mentioned in the 2nd amendment. Everyone. If you are an adult law abiding citizen of this country, then you are the "well-regulated militia". That, I think, was the intent. Not the police or the National Guard. Yes, it's preposterous...

Then again, it's entirely possible that all this "gun control hysteria" is a bunch of hooey, designed to drive up gun sales. I'd love to be a gun dealer right now. They are making a killing(no pun intended).

IMO the idea of a successful armed revolt in this country is .... well, poppycock.

In the first place, it would require quire a few people agreeing upon the need for this armed revolt all at the same time. And I do not see that sort of unified opinion on any particular issue or combination of issues.

Alan cited several example that I think are not applicable. In most cases, the armed resistance of the people was to throw out an invader... which would not be the case here.

Beyond that, there are more than a few difficulties.... for example the fact that the US army would have tanks, missiles, aircraft, and predator drones to oppose people with hunting rifles.

Also, we have a highly technological nation. The simple fact is that not many people would be able to self support on the land as a guerrilla army. And I think that not many people would be willing to under go the privation and struggle that is/was accepted by afghans, or Viet Cong for instance.

Also consider the evolution of the situation in Iraq. This was certainly a text book case of a nation headed for an uncontrolled citizen revolt culminating in a horrible conflagration. It did not work out that way. Why not? oh for any number of reasons... including the fact that the US Army co-opted many of the groups that formerly opposed them. And, my argument is that if that strategy could be applied successfully in Iraq, it would be even more likely to be successful in the good ol' USofA. In other words, with out some extremely strong idea or personality to unify resistance, it would be easily fragmented and defeated.

All in all, I cannot imagine that anyone in Washington DC gives a moment of thought to the possibility of armed rebels crossing the Potomac and killing our political class.

For me, the issue boils down to "Who do I trust more.... you and your armed militia... or the sytem of guberment we have now?

No offense intended Allen... but I am just not so very sure that I want you and your unelected friends with guns running the country. Actually, I am pretty sure that is something I do NOT want.

Nobody ever thinks about what would happen AFTER the hypothetical overthrow of the "tyranical government" by the armed militia members. Once they were in control, how would we ever vote them out of office? (Considering that we didn't vote them into office, but rather they took control by arms.) Does anybody actually believe they would just form a new Constitutional Convention and then go home in peace? Or would America devolve into a barbarian wasteland, ruled by brutal warlords?

The same problem goes for the "Armed Compound" mentality folks: Sure you can build a fortified base and stock it with enough weapons and followers to stand off an equal-sized invading force of Deputy Sheriffs. But why would the government just send an equal-sized and equally-armed force? Hold out long enough and they will start firing in mortar rounds and employing snipers who can castrate a housefly from 1000 yards. Then come the tanks. In a few moments, your mighty compound is a pile of pea gravel and you are being led off in your boxer shorts and tie-strap bracelets.

Pondering It All, without saying it, has demonstrated that
Uncontrolled Gun Proponents (conservatives I guess) seem to have a rather naive attitude that they can defeat the entire United States Government with their secret stash of weapons and survival training. I can picture it now, Pickup truck loads of rednecks storming the capital to defeat the Black Menace which they didn't elect and so must be destroyed...........Led from behind by Rush Limbaugh.
I don't have any particular trust for my government, naive or otherwise. But I don't think my rusty old shotgun is gonna make them more trustworthy.