Capitol Hill Blue Forums Life and Moral Issues Morality & Society Altruism -- a load of piffle?

Issodhos, that explanation reeks of logic. Altruism is not logical, as beechouse pointed out, altruism is pre-thought, limbic rather than logic.

When one's child falls into a frozen lake, the reaction comes long before thinking. And it most definitely does not get weighted pro and con. One dives in and risks everything to save the child.

Most things get badly contaminated by thought. I can only recommend several sessions with powerful chemical agents, natural or not, that can help you beyond that curse we humans share -- thinking.

Interesting comments, beechhouse, but I do not think the question is false. People often assign the label "altruistic" to the acts of people without needing to consult with the recipient of the act. I think it is valid to question a claim to selfless motivation.

I think that you are correct in writing that the act is "paid for" in advance. I think that the value to the actor of doing the act has been determined to be greater to him than not doing act, therefore the exchange has been made to the satisfaction of both.
Yours,
Issodhos

Yes. And in doing so it would be because I would find greater satisfaction in doing so than in accepting the alternative.
Yours,
Issodhos

I am not restricting anything to "complete strangers", Greger. I consider nurse Jerry Avant Jr. to be a hero. I do not think this imaginary thing named 'altruism' was involved in his actions. I would compare it to a soldier who died covering a grenade to protect his comrades. Both decided it was of greater value to do what they did than to not have done it. It was not selfless from their viewpoint.
Yours,
Issodhos

I think all the examples you provided were actions of people wanting to be nice. I think that they valued being nice more than they valued being not nice. I think it made them feel good about themselves, and I think it was very nice of them to do what they did, but they did have their reward. So, I do not think that those actions demonstrate the existance of altruism.
Yours,
Issodhos

I suggest, Phil, that such a reaction is a result of prior conditioning and does not require further thought at the time of action.
Yours,
Issodhos
P.s. I don't think beechhouse was suggesting "pre-thought", but rather post-thought.

I agree it is pre thought. It is your notion that altruism is a thought process, not mine.

So, in order to be truely altruistic... one would have to serve the interests of others in some manner that would not at the same time correspond to your own interests? So, for example, a soldier throwing himself on a grenade to save his buddies could not be called altrusitic because he was self interested in saving his friends?

I guess in order to be truely altruistic a soldier would have to throw himself on to a grenade to save enemy troops that were killing his buddies.

Great question, Isso. I don't know that there is an answer.

Altruism is helping someone else in some way without expecting gratitude, recognition or reward. We Buddhists call it "loving kindness". Is altruism truly a selfless act? It could be, but I believe often it is not.

It is my belief that when you do something in the service of others that it is to everyone's benefit if you avoid recognition. It is not always easy, not for me anyway. In fact it can be difficult as hell. It becomes a bit easier in time. I have found that when I do it it brings me tremendous peace. When that happens I have to ask myself what, really, was my motivation for doing it. If you get anything back, even a very good and peaceful feeling and a greater connection to all things, then are your actions really altruistic? I don't know.

So, Mick, the first time you did something and found afterwards that it had given you "a very good and peaceful feeling and a greater connection to all things", did you know in advance of that first time that it would bring you that feeling? Or was it the surprise result of your action? And if, in subsequent moments, you enjoyed that same feeling, did you engage in the act BECAUSE you expected that same feeling again or for some other reason?