|
0 members (),
7
guests, and
2
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums59
Topics17,129
Posts314,628
Members6,305
| |
Most Online294
Dec 6th, 2017
|
|
|
There are no members with birthdays on this day. |
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,003 Likes: 191
Moderator Carpal Tunnel
|
OP
Moderator Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,003 Likes: 191 |
The Obama administration endured weeks of excoriation from the right over the release of the torture memos of the preceding administration. (For a reasoned rebuttal, see Protecting spies wasn’t meant to protect torture - The Barr Code - yes, that Bob Barr...) This week, in contrast, it is being excoriated for reversing course on releasing photographs from investigations conducted in 2004, and after. Obama won't publish abuse photos (Fox News, of course, is having it both ways, condemning him for both decisions. PETER ROFF: What’s Really More Damaging — The Photos or the Memos? I suppose that is being "fair and balanced," huh?) So the question arises, will release of the photos further public discussion, or create more harm than good? Can one reasonably distinguish between releasing the memos that authorized the practices and photos evidencing the results of those practices? Inquiring minds (not the Philadelphia Inquirer*, mind you) want to know. What do you think? * Yoo Who? Inquiring Minds Fail
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.
Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,003 Likes: 191
Moderator Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Moderator Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,003 Likes: 191 |
Another View: Thinking Again About Those Photos - And Obama's Rope-A-Dope Ways The point of the photos is not to demonstrate more gore; it is to have a fresh opening to explain to Americans just how widespread this was, and also to remind them that this led to the deaths of scores. But against this important public interest, the president has another duty - to his soldiers in the line of fire. These soldiers deserve a chance to do their astonishingly difficult job without inflaming those who might be inspired to kill and attack them. I see no reason to suspect that Obama is not genuine about this question, and it's a fair factor to consider. More importantly, he has not said that suppressing the photos at this time means suppressing them for ever, and has not indicated that he will prevent justice being done. In fact, his statement said the opposite.
The pro-torture right will say this call is obvious. It isn't. It's very hard. When you have inherited a policy of war crimes, and you are still fighting a war, balancing accountability with responsibility is tough. I think, having made our point, we should cut the man some slack on this. What matters is holding those who destroyed America's moral standing responsible.
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.
Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,850
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,850 |
Releasing the photos [broadly] has limited, if any, real value. Lots of prurient interest is satisfied, lots of folks from all walks of life in all countries of the world can either drool or cluck, depending on their agendae, and lots of people (mostly the victims)will be seriously embarrassed.
Selective release of selected photos in furtherance of litigation, investigation, or other legitimate purpose has some value and there is ample precedent in our legal system for handling any such requests in a manner that allows the litigants appropriate access without making the photos part of the cesspool of extraneous crap that is the Internet.
It is not a stretch in my mind to believe that some content of some pictures could have adverse impact on the nation's interests. I don't have a problem with the President's decision not to release them in bulk.
Last edited by loganrbt; 05/14/09 02:48 PM.
"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,740 Likes: 1
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,740 Likes: 1 |
bait and switch, bait and switch
the debate is now about the release of the photos and not about prosecuting the war criminals, who have admitted it.
time and again this sort of crap happens,
didnt the daily show once do a segment where the "reporter" was so amazed by a tin foil ball that he forgot what he was reporting on
"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words."
(Philip K.Dick)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,850
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,850 |
I take your point seriously, but I also believe that both topics warrant discussion. There are other threads where the war criminal topic has been engaged. (See my note elsewhere regarding a collection for an airline ticket to Spain for our chief war criminal)
"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,003 Likes: 191
Moderator Carpal Tunnel
|
|
OP
Moderator Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,003 Likes: 191 |
I am of the same mind as Andrew Sullivan on this one. I see the same distinction as you pointed out, Logan, and I think that is precisely where Obama is going. Indeed, there is a court rule, Fed. Rule Evid. 403, that is pretty much what Obama, a lawyer, is addressing: Exclusion of Relevant Evidence on Grounds of Prejudice, Confusion, or Waste of Time
Although relevant, evidence may be excluded if its probative value is substantially outweighed by the danger of unfair prejudice, confusion of the issues, or misleading the jury, or by considerations of undue delay, waste of time, or needless presentation of cumulative evidence. While this is obviously not a lawsuit forum (other than the court of public opinion), I think the principle is applicable. I do not think that release of the photos will further public discussion, but will create more harm than good. Normally I agree with complete openness, and this goes against my grain, but the reality is it isn't necessary to address the underlying problem. True story example: I had a client once whose ex-boyfriend was showing around nude photos of her he took when they were together. She offered to show me the photos and I declined, because it was not necessary to address the legal questions of illegal use of an image or the tort of outrage. Descriptions of the photos was sufficient. The ex-boyfriend was eventually prosecuted for some of his behavior, and could have been sued (and, we got my client's photos back).
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.
Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 19,831 Likes: 180
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 19,831 Likes: 180 |
-
Those who need to see the pictures should see them. America en masse has no need to see the pictures and I consider their release to be far more harmful than good. I, most certainly, do not want to see them.
-
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,643
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,643 |
-
Those who need to see the pictures should see them. America en masse has no need to see the pictures and I consider their release to be far more harmful than good. I, most certainly, do not want to see them. I agree Greger...I see the release more harmful than good. I think that given the region and the origin of those who are in the pictures being abused...it'll be just one more excuse to generate a new cause against America and more in particular our military. Our men and women who are serving in Iraq and Afghanistan...don't need to be placed under the world microscope and be found guilty by association by every radical and citizens who might be in the category of ignorant. It will just place them under more harms way.
Turn on ANY brand of political machine - and it automatically goes to the "SPIN and LIE CYCLE" 
Yours Truly - Gregg
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 12,226
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 12,226 |
The pictures are not something I want to see. It is doubtful that I would look at them. I don't want those images in my head. Who would?
The pictures must be released. The American public needs to see them. American soldiers, many working outside their MOS and training, were involved in the torture and mistreatment. What some of them did was wrong, but their actions need to be seen. It didn't start with "a few bad apples" simultaneously and coincidentally using some of the same methods of abuse at different confinement facilities in different hemispheres.
Americans need to become sickened. Americans need to demand unbiased investigation and justice at even - especially - at the highest levels. If not, once again, those who give the orders will skate. We have soldiers in prison for participating in inhuman treatment. Why in the name of all things holy should those who created the atmosphere that condoned, hell, encouraged, ORDERED, that behavior go Scott free? What message does that send to those that follow in Washington?
Cheney skates, Rumsfeld skates, Hadley skates, Rice skates, Feith skates, Bush skates, Pelosi skates, and on and on. The message: Washington takes care of its own.
If Obama is about change - and I'm wondering these days - he can take the righteous path. He has the power to begin to return this nation to whatever dignity and moral authority we once had. Or, Obama can turn his head and in essence excuse the inexcusable.
The Speaker of the House wants to put the issue to bed and has for a long time. Now we see that she has known about the torture for a very long time. Who else? How many on the Hill? President Obama, too, wants to sweep it under the carpet. That is precisely what Obama is doing by refusing to release the pictures. His actions are not the actions of a person who wants the public to know the truth. His actions are the actions of someone who'd like the public to ignore the truth.
Torture was committed in OUR name, it's time to man up or wus out forever.
____________________
You, you and you, panic. The rest of you follow me.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 161
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 161 |
At today’s White House press briefing, press secretary Robert Gibbs told reporters that the president was concerned that the photos’ release would pose a national security threat. In other words, these unreleased photos and videos show acts of degeneracy so vile there is no way they can be explained or rationalized. They contain images of children - some of them the children of detainees - being raped and sodomized as a means of forcing confessions I personally think that they SHOULD be released... for those who will look or NOT .. http://www.uruknet.de/?s1=1&p=54232&s2=14 This was your country. This was your country in the grip of a madman. This is your country trying desperately to deny, to hide, to bury, the evidence of war crimes on a massive scale. Honesty is ALWAYS THE WAY TO FORGIVENESS... We as a 'people' did not do this... but we should bring those who did to pay the fiddler... Now would be good?
Last edited by Em; 05/15/09 02:05 AM.
"Usually, terrible things that are done with the excuse that progress requires them are not really progress at all, but just terrible things." Russell Baker
|
|
|
|
|
