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Dec 6th, 2017
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Joined: May 2005
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Wow! As a US Taxpayer, I wouldn't give Israel one dime based on this video.
Contrarian, extraordinaire
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Pooh-Bah
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Time to expand the discussion away from the "either or" and the "zero sum game" territory.
Israel's existence is important for many reasons which are already well understood and discussed often enough that it's safe to say that it does not merit an in depth rehashing here.
The Jewish people have lived in the region for thousands of years, they earned the right to carve out their homeland I agree that now Israel is a fact that cannot be altered. But what you say about "earning the right" to exist seems not to make sense to me. Historically speaking, there are lots of groups who have lived in and dominated this area through out history. Yes, it is true that for a while, the area was a Jewish kingdom. But, that kingdom lost many wars and had a rebellion that resulted ins dispersal of their people across the rest of the world. This fate is not unique to the Jews. certainly there are lots of smaller groups of people who have lost wars to large empires and found their geographical identity has been lost. Let me know if you need an extensive illustration of this... you could start with the native Indian peoples of North America. The fact that Jews continues to live as a viable minority in the middle east was only as a result of th generosity of the Muslim rulers of that region.... rulers who could easily have done to the Jews what the inquisition did to them in Spain... killed and or exiled them. Until the early 20th century, the Jews of the middle east lived as a minority similar to many other such minorities... the Coptic Christians in Egypt, the Maronite Christians in Lebanon, etc. I see no way in which their minority existence in the middle east earned them any special consideration. As far as I can tell... the defining moment in the creation and acceptance of Israel as a state emerged from Hitler's holocaust... which finally gave a clear logic for the argument of Jewish statehood. Never the less, the creation of a "Jewish State" inherently had to exile the majority Arab populations of that state.... else wise, how else could you have a state that was both Jewish and in any manner democratic? The same problem still exists today in that Israel really wants to incorporate the west bank as part of their state... but cannot absorb the existing residents. The ever expanding settlements are their way of having their cake and eating it too. (IMO) The whole settlement program has been based upon a lie.... and it is a lie that our nation willingly participated in (or acquiesced to) wink wink.
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel
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old hand
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old hand
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The Jewish people have lived in the region for thousands of years, they earned the right to carve out their homeland and, in cases where wars erupted, they fought and won them fair and square, or at least as close to such a notion as is possible on Man's Earth. So you would be in favor of arming the Apache, Sioux, Navaho, etc., and letting them take back the Dakotas, the Great Plains, the Rocky Mountains from Texas to Vancouver, New York, Pennsylvania, etc. from the folks who forced them off their land at gun point?
"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown
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Joined: Aug 2004
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It's the Despair Quotient! Carpal Tunnel
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It's the Despair Quotient! Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,177 Likes: 254 |
As far as I can tell... the defining moment in the creation and acceptance of Israel as a state emerged from Hitler's holocaust... which finally gave a clear logic for the argument of Jewish statehood.
Never the less, the creation of a "Jewish State" inherently had to exile the majority Arab populations of that state.... else wise, how else could you have a state that was both Jewish and in any manner democratic? The same problem still exists today in that Israel really wants to incorporate the west bank as part of their state... but cannot absorb the existing residents. The ever expanding settlements are their way of having their cake and eating it too. (IMO)
The whole settlement program has been based upon a lie.... and it is a lie that our nation willingly participated in (or acquiesced to) wink wink. I said that the settlements must be stopped and that settlers must retreat from their fanatical philosophy. Israel's borders are NOT subject to "manifest destiny". I don't know what more I can say to make it clear.
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com
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Joined: Aug 2004
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It's the Despair Quotient! Carpal Tunnel
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It's the Despair Quotient! Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,177 Likes: 254 |
The Jewish people have lived in the region for thousands of years, they earned the right to carve out their homeland and, in cases where wars erupted, they fought and won them fair and square, or at least as close to such a notion as is possible on Man's Earth. So you would be in favor of arming the Apache, Sioux, Navaho, etc., and letting them take back the Dakotas, the Great Plains, the Rocky Mountains from Texas to Vancouver, New York, Pennsylvania, etc. from the folks who forced them off their land at gun point? I am in favor of linking these people to whatever solutions allow them to reclaim their heritage and promote economic stability and financial freedom for their tribe, to which end this is already being realized with the advent of treaty reconciliation efforts, casino initiatives and small business assistance via the the various states as evidenced already and as slated to continue. But I view your attempt to link Israel's history to an American one to be a fallacious try at equating two vaguely similar and yet wholly separate developmental paths. What happens in the Middle East is not a corollary for what happens in America, particularly when it is American taxpayers that are both pouring financial aid on Israel AND heaping reparations for the sins of their fathers to the various Indian nations. Therefore I'd say that, if anything, America is both leading by example and paying for its mistakes while Israel is doing neither.
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com
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Joined: Feb 2008
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
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The analogy arises from the fact that the military capability that enabled the Exodus generation to carve out a homeland was provided by the U.S. and its allies. If that is the model for creating artificial states for self-determination, then we should be consistent. Heck, while we're at it, let's arm the Armenians and the Tamils.
"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 47,433 Likes: 373
Member CHB-OG
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Member CHB-OG
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Isn't the whole State of Israel based upon Zionism and weren't the Zionists of the early 20th century responsible for the pushing the creation of the country of Israel by pressing the British Government?
Contrarian, extraordinaire
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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I said that the settlements must be stopped and that settlers must retreat from their fanatical philosophy.
Israel's borders are NOT subject to "manifest destiny".
I don't know what more I can say to make it clear. Sorry if my posting seemed directed at you... I was mostly just expressing my opinion on the topic in general rather than your expressed thoughts.
"It's not a lie if you believe it." -- George Costanza
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves. --Bertrand Russel
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 161
stranger
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stranger
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Posts: 161 |
Reports from officers on board the USS Saratoga say that planes took off for Egypt, carrying nukes for a preplanned attack, but were soon recalled when it was found out the ship still floated and that sailors had survived.
Back in the port, the crew were threatened to stay silent about it all, with John McCaine’s admiral father heading a phoney investigation. The US government has covered up much about all this, even 42 years after. One Texas clown was President for a false-flag attack on the US in 1967 and another Texas clown was President in 2001. Think about it!
Last edited by Em; 06/11/09 06:47 AM.
"Usually, terrible things that are done with the excuse that progress requires them are not really progress at all, but just terrible things." Russell Baker
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Joined: Jul 2004
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veteran
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Joined: Jul 2004
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I said that the settlements must be stopped and that settlers must retreat from their fanatical philosophy.
Israel's borders are NOT subject to "manifest destiny". ask the canaanites
"The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words."
(Philip K.Dick)
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Em
