Capitol Hill Blue Forums Political Issues Politics In General Sense vs. Nonsense in Debt Ceiling Debate

As the potential defaulting on our national debt looms ever larger and comes ever closer, there is a rising chorus of responsible conservatives who are speaking up so as to drown out the radicals on the far right who think that default is not a serious problem. For one thing, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce has reiterated its opposition to default in a recent piece, "Default Is Not An Option – Spread the Word" The USCC has stated unequivocally: "failure to raise the debt ceiling would have calamitous results. It would halt government operations, make our debt and deficit situation worse, debase the value of the dollar and threaten its status as the world’s reserve currency, and hamper U.S. growth and job creation." Based on the fact that debt, deficit, growth and job creation are all topics in the forefront of the conservative agenda, it doesn't seem to make much sense to allow the federal government to default if the conservative agenda would be setback as a result. Responsible conservatives know this and now they are taking their argument to the public so as to forestall any calamity that would result from the recklessness of the far right.

A second development that is worth noting is that the "Gang of Six", those senators who have been working with the Simpson-Bowles deficit reduction committee proposals has gained another member, Lamar Alexander (R-TN) and its proceedings appear to have garnered increased interest on Capitol Hill. Quoting Senator Kent Conrad: "Any debt deal would resemble the "Gang of Six" plan." The "Gang of Six" proposals are a combination of spending cuts and revenue increases and they stand in sharp contrast to the ultra conservative Cut, Cap and Balance bill that's going nowhere on Capitol Hill. While Tea Party backed Senator Mike Lee (R-UT) said of Cut, Cap and Balance: "And we want to make very clear, this isn't just the best plan on the table for addressing the debt limit; this is the only plan"; Speaker of the House, John Boehner, acted immediately to put Lee's comments into perspective. Boehner said: "Oh, I'm sure we have got some members who believe that, but I do not believe that would be anywhere close to the majority. At the end of the day, we have a responsibility to act." With these comments, Boehner is signaling a more reasonable approach to addressing the dual problems of deficits and revenues. Boehner is also very much aware of the fact that while there may be a sizable default caucus among the Tea Party crowd in the House, there is a very small claque of Senators on the far right who are beholden to the same views. Based on the fact that Jack Lew, the head of the Office of Management and Budget testified at the bipartisan debt reduction caucus today and reiterated the fact that whatever the final plan is, it would have to include some form of revenue increase, is it any wonder that John Boehner is charting a more practical course?

Why reality is even starting to dawn on anti-tax zealot Grover Norquist. Norquist has begun to equivocate on whether or not allowing the Bush era tax breaks to expire amounts to a tax hike. Norquist's equivocation is an element of particular irony as it is Norquist who developed the "Taxpayer Protection Pledge" which disavows any increase in federal revenue from increased taxes or the elimination of tax breaks and the closing of loopholes. Norquist's about face on Bush era tax cuts is a major setback for the "starve the beast crowd" on the far right and represents a major departure from his previous no compromise approach to taxes and spending. That's something that won't go unnoticed in the political world and something that is a defacto admission of the need to raise revenues in order to address the deficit.

Thus in the final analysis, as we grind on towards August and the potential of a default, the voices of common sense are growing ever louder and more persuasive and the anti revenue zealots are seeing their chances of dealing with the deficit through drastic cuts alone slip away with each passing hour and each passing day. Senator Chuck Schumer (D-NY) likened the far right radicals in the House to being on an "iceberg that is melting into the ocean" and in need of a life line so as to save themselves from political irrelevance. In the end, those who thought they could come to Washington and refuse to compromise will find themselves on the wrong side of history with their political futures all the more uncertain going forward.


SJG

7/22/11





Sources:

Default Is Not An Option – Spread the Word
http://www.chamberpost.com/2011/07/default-is-not-an-option-%e2%80%93-spread-the-word/

4 ways a debt default would hurt America
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2011-07-13-debt-limit-default-effects_n.htm

Conrad: Any Debt Deal Would Resemble 'Gang of 6' Plan
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/july-dec11/debt_07-21.html

Grover Norquist: Ending Bush Tax Cuts Not A Tax Hike
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/21/grover-norquist-bush-tax-cuts-tax-hike_n_905624.html

Not having followed this inter-party fracas to any extent, why exactly is it that president Obama and the Democrats are threatening to default on a debt payment if the accumulated debt ceiling is not raised? What is it they have to gain by doing so?
Yours,
Issodhos

Ha, ha, ha, Iss… very droll. Or, as my son would say, "I see what you did there..."

Moi?:-)

I am pretty sure that their actions stem from following a 90 year old classical liberal economic philosophy, that, as is so common amongst those who listen to their inner fascinista, have subverted it into an ideology. They also took the pledge, "All New Taxes", which is in conflict with the counter pledge of the We Think We Are Taxed Enough Already But We Never Did The Math brigade, "No New Taxes". However, in a twist of irony that can only be appreciated at Reader Rant, Grover Ben Dover, the architect of the WTWARTEABWNDTMer's Pledge, has done a "voice of God done told me" reversal and now says that letting the Bush tax cuts expire is not Pledge averse, though the 'We Special Cuz We Got Elected To Do A Job'bers haven't been watching the news, as yourself can attest, so they don't know that they have an excuse to lose now.

What Obama and the Democrats have to gain is winning, which they don't really like to do.

There, I took the bait. Now have your way with me.

Again, from the Right this is NOT about the debt! Its what they are talking about but it is NOT what this is about! What it is about is shrinking the government and if you listen carefully you will note that this is the ONLY agenda and they have no plan to agree to anything (no matter how much Obama tries to give away). The Right has already rolled back taxes so we are overspending irregardless of the existing debt. Now they want to coup de gras, SHUT IT DOWN! Reason has nothing to do with it. Pain has nothing to do with it. The loons want their way and the Republicans are standing, foursquare behind the loons.

This is simply amazing. The 85 (a number often reported) new tea bag congressmen have made it crystal clear - SHUT IT DOWN! There will be no problems, we don't have to pay our bills, nothing will go wrong. I suspect this may be a wet dream of the Left! If this happens the Republicans will simply not stand a chance in the 2012 election.

Then, again, we should remember that these folks are insistent on the very set of policies that brought us close to financial ruin and huge unemployment (lower taxes, stop regulation, etc). Now they are adding to their works with something that just may well bring us to Great Depression status. The miracle is that they actually got elected, by an obviously ignorant electorate which seems to have problems with their own well being. So, perhaps the Right can weather this one too as they ARE the experts, when it comes to bamboozle, smoke, mirrors, morality, and magical thinking.

I wish us all luck...........

102 Things you shouldn't do if you hate to pay taxes

By- Stephen Foster

'So, you’re a Republican that hates taxes? Well, since you do not like taxes or government, please kindly do the following.

1. Do not use Medicare.
2. Do not use Social Security
3. Do not become a member of the US military, who are paid with tax dollars.
4. Do not ask the National Guard to help you after a disaster.
5. Do not call 911 when you get hurt.
6. Do not call the police to stop intruders in your home.
7. Do not summon the fire department to save your burning home.
8. Do not drive on any paved road, highway, and interstate or drive on any bridge.
9. Do not use public restrooms.
10. Do not send your kids to public schools.
11. Do not put your trash out for city garbage collectors.
12. Do not live in areas with clean air.
13. Do not drink clean water.
14. Do not visit National Parks.
15. Do not visit public museums, zoos, and monuments.
16. Do not eat or use FDA inspected food and medicines.
17. Do not bring your kids to public playgrounds.
18. Do not walk or run on sidewalks.
19. Do not use public recreational facilities such as basketball and tennis courts.
20. Do not seek shelter facilities or food in soup kitchens when you are homeless and hungry.
21. Do not apply for educational or job training assistance when you lose your job.
22. Do not apply for food stamps when you can’t feed your children.
23. Do not use the judiciary system for any reason.
24. Do not ask for an attorney when you are arrested and do not ask for one to be assigned to you by the court.
25. Do not apply for any Pell Grants.
26. Do not use cures that were discovered by labs using federal dollars.
27. Do not fly on federally regulated airplanes.
28. Do not use any product that can trace its development back to NASA.
29. Do not watch the weather provided by the National Weather Service.
30. Do not listen to severe weather warnings from the National Weather Service.
31. Do not listen to tsunami, hurricane, or earthquake alert systems.
32. Do not apply for federal housing.
33. Do not use the internet, which was developed by the military.
34. Do not swim in clean rivers.
35. Do not allow your child to eat school lunches or breakfasts.
36. Do not ask for FEMA assistance when everything you own gets wiped out by disaster.
37. Do not ask the military to defend your life and home in the event of a foreign invasion.
38. Do not use your cell phone or home telephone.
39. Do not buy firearms that wouldn’t have been developed without the support of the US Government and military. That includes most of them.
40. Do not eat USDA inspected produce and meat.
41. Do not apply for government grants to start your own business.
42. Do not apply to win a government contract.
43. Do not buy any vehicle that has been inspected by government safety agencies.
44. Do not buy any product that is protected from poisons, toxins, etc…by the Consumer Protection Agency.
45. Do not save your money in a bank that is FDIC insured.
46. Do not use Veterans benefits or military health care.
47. Do not use the G.I. Bill to go to college.
48. Do not apply for unemployment benefits.
49. Do not use any electricity from companies regulated by the Department of Energy.
50. Do not live in homes that are built to code.
51. Do not run for public office. Politicians are paid with taxpayer dollars.
52. Do not ask for help from the FBI, S.W.A.T, the bomb squad, Homeland Security, State troopers, etc…
53. Do not apply for any government job whatsoever as all state and federal employees are paid with tax dollars.
54. Do not use public libraries.
55. Do not use the US Postal Service.
56. Do not visit the National Archives.
57. Do not visit Presidential Libraries.
58. Do not use airports that are secured by the federal government.
59. Do not apply for loans from any bank that is FDIC insured.
60. Do not ask the government to help you clean up after a tornado.
61. Do not ask the Department of Agriculture to provide a subsidy to help you run your farm.
62. Do not take walks in National Forests.
63. Do not ask for taxpayer dollars for your oil company.
64. Do not ask the federal government to bail your company out during recessions.
65. Do not seek medical care from places that use federal dollars.
66. Do not use Medicaid.
67. Do not use WIC.
68. Do not use electricity generated by Hoover Dam.
69. Do not use electricity or any service provided by the Tennessee Valley Authority.
70. Do not ask the Army Corps of Engineers to rebuild levees when they break.
71. Do not let the Coast Guard save you from drowning when your boat capsizes at sea.
72. Do not ask the government to help evacuate you when all hell breaks loose in the country you are in.
73. Do not visit historic landmarks.
74. Do not visit fisheries.
75. Do not expect to see animals that are federally protected because of the Endangered Species List.
76. Do not expect plows to clear roads of snow and ice so your kids can go to school and so you can get to work.
77. Do not hunt or camp on federal land.
78. Do not work anywhere that has a safe workplace because of government regulations.
79. Do not use public transportation.
80. Do not drink water from public water fountains.
81. Do not whine when someone copies your work and sells it as their own. Government enforces copyright laws.
82. Do not expect to own your home, car, or boat. Government organizes and keeps all titles.
83. Do not expect convicted felons to remain off the streets.
84. Do not eat in restaurants that are regulated by food quality and safety standards.
85. Do not seek help from the US Embassy if you need assistance in a foreign nation.
86. Do not apply for a passport to travel outside of the United States.
87. Do not apply for a patent when you invent something.
88. Do not adopt a child through your local, state, or federal governments.
89.Do not use elevators that have been inspected by federal or state safety regulators.
90. Do not use any resource that was discovered by the USGS.
91. Do not ask for energy assistance from the government.
92. Do not move to any other developed nation, because the taxes are much higher.
93. Do not go to a beach that is kept clean by the state.
94. Do not use money printed by the US Treasury.
95. Do not complain when millions more illegal immigrants cross the border because there are no more border patrol agents.
96. Do not attend a state university.
97. Do not see any doctor that is licensed through the state.
98. Do not use any water from municipal water systems.
99. Do not complain when diseases and viruses, that were once fought around the globe by the US government and CDC, reach your house.
100. Do not work for any company that is required to pay its workers a livable wage, provide them sick days, vacation days, and benefits.
101. Do not expect to be able to vote on election days. Government provides voting booths, election day officials, and voting machines which are paid for with taxes.
102. Do not ride trains. The railroad was built with government financial assistance.

The fact is, we pay for the lifestyle we expect. Without taxes, our lifestyles would be totally different and much harder. America would be a third world country. The less we pay, the less we get in return. Americans pay less taxes today since 1958 and is ranked 32nd out of 34 of the top tax paying countries. Chile and Mexico are 33rd and 34th. The Republicans are lying when they say that we pay the highest taxes in the world and are only attacking taxes to reward corporations and the wealthy and to weaken our infrastructure and way of life. So next time you object to paying taxes or fight to abolish taxes for corporations and the wealthy, keep this quote in mind…

“I like to pay taxes. With them, I buy civilization.” ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

You mean Socialism and living responsibly together sharing mutual benefits aren't the same thing?

So I was away on a motorcycle ride for a few days and all hell breaks loose? From whart I read there was a cl;assic bait and switch tried and rejected. The problem with a bait and switch is when it goes bad, it usually ruins whatever trust had been established, in this case the dems tried what they have always done in the past, promise cuts for tax increases and then never make the promised cuts. Oh, what is the world going to do????

This is what will happen, either Obama will sign a limited increase, forcing this whole passion play to be acted out again next year, or he will try to act unilaterally and just increase it himself. My guess is that he takes the first option because he would be on shaley legal ground with the second and would get nothing out of the House until the new Congress is sworn in. This is his own fault, he tried to play it up as a national security issue, set a date in stone, then set another date in another stone, and now he has set another date in that same stone tablet, what is a fiscal conservative to do? Bow to the great and powerful Oz? do what he bids them to do because he says they have to do it to save America, when the very people who he needs to support him believe that to save America one needs to rein in spending? They believe it in the very heart, probably more than Obama believes he should have carte blanche to spend as much as he wants to spend, on anything he deems is necessary.

America will not default, unless Obama refuses to sign a short term increase. Will it work like the time Clinton shut down the government? Who knows, but Obama isn't Clinton and the economy is much worse today than it was then.

If the situation is as bad as you would have us believe then Obama will have no choice but to sign the short term solution and campaign on the need to increase it once again. It sucks for Obama, there are no good choices, but he has said more than once that he would be ok with being a one term President. I thought he was lying then, and I believe he is lying now, but he really has no choice, does he?

Ma

Your post is redolent with lack of grasp on reality.

Among other things I absolutely LOVE where you look at this mess and say it's Obama's fault. Realists look at the recalcitrance of the Republicans, particularly those who are drinking the tea, and wonder how they can throw their country under the bus.

And the statement that it was Clinton who shut down the government! A classic misdirection. Here is reality:


wiki article on Newt Gingrich, which seems to me to pretty well summarize the truth of that sorry episode in our past. Newt didn't throw his country under the bus, he threw it under the wheels of Air Force One.

The inability to compromise when the future of our government is at stake is destroying the Republican Party. All of those Republicans who are part of that sorry excuse for a political organization and who exacerbate the problem by failing to understand and to steer your party into a real attempt at solutions rather than posturing, are, at best, misguided souls and at worst complicit in willful destruction of our government, traitors in other words.