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Joined: Sep 2005
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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here is the reality ... no one knows what makes the economy contract and expand ... policy changes are used to mitigate economic contraction ...  Funny stuff, rporter314! 
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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old hand
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old hand
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As far as I can tell taxation, in the United States, is lower than any other industrialized nation, as expressed as a percentage of the GNP, and we actually rate something like 132nd in taxation ( http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/tax_tax_rev_of_gdp-taxation-tax-revenue-of-gdp) At the same time we pay almost twice as much to poorly educate our children, our medical costs are the highest in the world, and we spend more on our military than the rest of the world combined (yet have been unable to take out Al Quida - 200 members at most, we are told). These are all gifts of our congress, over many years. Congress has been responsive to demands for programs, but unwilling to actually pay for such (does anybody believe that a 1.45% payroll tax would really pay for medicare?). Our taxes were low before Bush Jr but even lower afterwards. So, why in the world would we not have a budget out of balance? Why would we not have debt? So, the Right, terribly concerned with our national debt, decided to fix that debt by reducing our taxes so that they are the some of the lowest in the world. At the same time they reduced regulation, crashed the economy, and then passed it all on to the Left to take care of. Ok, so then the left said we gotta raise income because if we do not then we cannot fix the debt without cutting all social programs, the military, etc. The Right responded with their plan to privatize both Medicare and Social Security (the SS 'trust' fund is now 17% of the entire national debt!), ie. get rid of them. Nobody has ever claimed that gov does not make mistakes. Nobody has ever claimed that gov cannot do a better job spending our tax dollars. Anybody, however, that believes this is what its all about have to be out of their collective minds. Anybody who believes the rants of the Right, about what its about have got to be kidding! The Right, and our congress, have now cut taxes so that nothing seems to be getting paid for. The Right then says that more cuts in gov must be made as we are taxed too much and there will be no new taxes. It seems pretty clear to me that the agenda of the Right is NOT the debt. I, for one, firmly believe that the Right wants this nation to stop spending money, nothing more, nothing less. Not raising the debt accomplishes this. I, therefore, believe this is their goal - nothing less, nothing more. We have another 5 days and then we will be forced to live on our existing income. The Right has been very clear about this - nothing will happen, except that gov will no longer be spending money it does not have. We will be returned to a time of full employment, little or no taxes, and freedom. I have also found it interesting that the Right, in its wisdom and understanding of economics, have dismissed any thought that bad things are to happen. Well, in 5 days we see. We are going to have the opportunity to see who is right. This is not all bad! Finally! Either the Right is dead wrong and things are going to get a lot worse, or they are right. In any case it will be interesting? Unfortunately, if the Right is wrong we will ALL get to deal with it and its not going to be real entertaining. Remember, Bush got the ball moving with huge tax reductions and two unpaid wars and the medicare drug option. Then we spent trillions bailing out, and making richer, the very criminals that were responsible for the economic downturn whilst our president repeatably said that his administration would not deal with these same criminals because that was all in the past. Then we spent almost another trillion on a stimulus which was really just maintenance for the states. Then our electorate decided to elect those from the Right, who would carry on the same policies that brought us down in the first place (lower taxes no regulation)! We seem to be on a roll of ignorance, failure, mistakes, hot air and baloney. Why in the world would anybody think that we are going to change when, with a little more politics, and stupidity, we can get that unemployment rate up to 20%, or even 30%! I will say it again, I do not care what other nations tax their citizens at. We are America, we do what we do, not what other countries want us to do. You can let your heart bleed for rest of the world, and how unfair it is that we are taxed at something like 132nd, and I tell you I would rather be taxed at something like 133rd. As for the balanced budget question, I repeat that the Congress knew about the tax cuts and decided to spend more money anyway. Don't blame the tax cuts, blame the people who spent above the budget, knew that they were spending above the budget, planned to spend above the budget and now expect me to feel outrage that taxes were cut? I feel outrage at their callous disregard for America's financial safety. If they wanted to raise taxes they could have, but they didn't have the balls to do it. Look in a mirror and tell me honestly who had more courage, Congressional spenders who have bankrupted this country or the Tea Party members who are refusing to increase taxes? The blame is theirs, not the tax cuts, I mean why not give some of the money back to the people who actually work for it? Congress was going to spend what they wanted to spend anyway, why not let the people have a little fun? When unemployment reaches 20%, we can waste another $1T dollars on mantainence. Why, by that time it will be but a small fraction of our national debt. Obama will cave, he will sign a compromise, the debt limit will be increased and we will once again go back to overspending and driving America into the ground. Our children will pay for our ignorance and for our laziness in electing the same morons over and over again. Maybe Ron Paul is the best candidate for POTUS.
Last edited by Ma_Republican; 07/27/11 02:47 AM.
A proud member of the Vast Right-wing Conspiracy, Massachusetts Chapter
“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.” Thomas Jefferson
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 19,831 Likes: 180
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 19,831 Likes: 180 |
Americans are "ignorant" and "lazy". Their leaders are "Morons". Yet these are the only people in the world whose opinions you trust? Not surprising I guess...
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,003 Likes: 191
Moderator Carpal Tunnel
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Moderator Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,003 Likes: 191 |
Won't we all be shocked, I say, shocked, when when 99% of economists are correct, U.S. debentures become toxic, the dollar is replaced by other currencies as the "reserve" currency, a second Great Depression grips the world, the standard of living in the U.S. drops to that of a third world country (OK, maybe only for most of us), and we struggle for decades to recover from the "lost decade" of 2008-2018? I will so hate to say "we told you so." Just like all those global warming scientists were right? um, yeah..but...relevance?
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.
Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,003 Likes: 191
Moderator Carpal Tunnel
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Moderator Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,003 Likes: 191 |
I thought I might respond to your last post, Ma, but then I realized that there was nohing to respond to... why is it, btw, no one has ever taken up my request to respond with facts or evidence? ?.....
I work pretty hard to substantiate my claims with fact, evidence, and references. Is it because, I don't know, there isn't any evidence available to refute it?
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.
Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,085 Likes: 134
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,085 Likes: 134 |
sure real funny ... so could you write the equation which predicts economic contraction and which variables and their values are necessary for that to happen? yes? no? economists are always looking back hoping to build better models ... so what is your excuse??? all the modern theories, including conservative theories, accept that in a modern world that mitigating the effects of contraction is not only useful but beneficial for all concerned. The question has been how, and of course conservatives and liberals disagree on the implementation. consider the recent case from the Bush administration. Economists warned Bush after the first quarter of the recession to counter the possibility of contraction but he refused to accept it until a full 3 quarters were recorded which fulfilled the definition of recession before being faced with financial collapse. Had he acted immediately we had a chance of averting the precipitous contraction we experienced. The point is economists did not warn Bush prior to the first quarter that a contraction was imminent because there is no way to predict it. Likewise there is no way to predict an expansion. Like i said if you think it is funny produce the equation which does all the predicting.
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,581
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,581 |
[quote]Like i said if you think it is funny produce the equation which does all the predicting. The fact that you are asking for an equation makes it even funnier, rporter314.  Oh, and by the way, in your previous post you wrote that no one knows what causes economies to contract and expand, not that no one can predict them.;-) Yours, Issodhos
Last edited by issodhos; 07/27/11 11:58 AM.
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 7,626
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 7,626 |
MA said: We are America, we do what we do, not what other countries want us to do. it's not about what other countries want us to do. it's about the reality of 21st economic models. we are inextricably tied into the global economy. our economy is the global economy. the global economy is our economy. do i like it? no. but it is the reality in which we live. currently the only way to back down from this will be to literally crash and burn beyond recognition and start from scratch. it would be devastating. i don't know that i want to see this, but if the republican congress has its way, what choice do i have? none, i believe.
sure, you can talk to god, but if you don't listen then what's the use? so, onward through the fog!
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,723
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,723 |
[quote=rporter314] Like i said if you think it is funny produce the equation which does all the predicting. The fact that you are asking for an equation makes it even funnier, rporter314.  Oh, and by the way, in your previous post you wrote that no one knows what causes economies to contract and expand, not that no one can predict them.;-) Yours, Issodhos Actually, what is funny - not "funny ha-ha", but "funny, yes, I'm laughing at you" - is that you took rporter's request for an equation literally. I guess your sarcasm detector is either malfunctioning or non-existent.
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,085 Likes: 134
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,085 Likes: 134 |
in your previous post you wrote that no one knows what causes economies to contract and expand, not that no one can predict them interesting correct ... i must be stupid BUT ... if i know the causes then i should be able to describe the context for such events and should therefore be able to write an appropriate equation could you have applied the thinking part of your brain and not the hatrack part you too could have deduced that one should imply the other the fact that you haven't enlightened me with an economic model which predicts economic changes suggests to me you have nothing or ... so here goes again ... with your apparently infinite knowledge of economics you do know what causes economic changes and you can predict those changes ... so shoot
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