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Carpal Tunnel
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Recent events in Gaza and Palestine have troubled me greatly. I find it difficult to articulate the mixture of anger, sorrow, disgust, shame . . . so many different feelings that color my perceptions about "what happened". Grief. Mostly grief. I found this essay at Counterpunch very clearly reflected many of my feelings. I wonder if others here at the Rant have similar perceptions, or different ones. Or if some have just shrugged off "the Palestine situation" as the one orphan child who needn't be saved. The Triumph of US/Israeli Policy in PalestineBy JENNIFER LOEWENSTEIN CounterPunch 6/25/2007 Claims that Hamas' "victory" in the Gaza Strip is a sign that the Bush Doctrine in Palestine has failed are misguided. While no one can foresee all of the events that might take place in a region as volatile as the Middle East, Hamas' takeover in Gaza will ultimately benefit Israel and the United States. It will benefit Israel by giving it a free hand to destroy Hamas, permanently sever the West Bank from the Gaza Strip, and re-"negotiate" with its newly appointed "partners" the remaining islands of economically unviable territory that will soon be entirely encircled by a concrete and barbed-wire wall, cut off from their supplies of water and fertile land, and separated internally by "Arab-free" roads. Please read and comment. I would particularly like to know whether you agree with this assessment: Watching the barbarous killing between brothers in Gaza, a power struggle between rival factions seething in frenzy like the great prison in which they thrive, Israeli and American political analysts can rest their cases with confidence. Across the spectrum of debate, these experts can expect vindication by the media juries who, in sanctimonious indignation at the brutality meted out by partisans of Fatah or Hamas, have assembled all the "evidence" they need to justify our righteous war against Muslim-Arab terrorists and their internecine blood feuds. Juan Cole addressed this question the other day. The gist of what he said was that Palestinians are no more given to violence than any other people. Are they not? If not, where do we look for the motivations that drive the engines of Palestine's civil war? Where do we look for the palliative that would slow those engines or stop them altogether?
Steve Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love, to respect and be kind to one another, so that we may grow with peace in mind. (Native American prayer)
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Pooh-Bah
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Rubbish. Total, rubbish, Stereoman.:-) I should not have read the entire thing since Lowenstein is obviously an anti-Western ideologue who is heavily invested in hating all things associated with it -- especially Israel's existance -- and one who believes that if a yak in Outer Mongolia gets a case of the shivers it was somehow caused by the Great Satan America.
I am always amazed at how easily these self-styled "defenders of the oppressed" convince themselves that those they are defending are so stupid and/or child-like that all the US or Israel has to do is withhold its blessings, causing these 'brothers' to begin killing each other in no time. Yours, Issodhos
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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Another excellent writer gets it right: The Coup Against HamasEric Margolis Lew Rockwell dot com Hamas won power in good part because of the refusal of Israel’s right-wing governments and the Bush administration to halt West Bank settlement even though it violate international law, the 1993 Oslo Accords, and UN Resolution 242.
West Bank Jewish settlers grew from 111,000 in 1993 to nearly 500,000 today – in spite of Israel’s agreement at Oslo to stop settlements.
<SNIP>
Inter-Palestinian violence and political chaos, of course, suit Israel’s expansionist right-wingers very well. They want turmoil on the West Bank. Palestinian infighting supplies them the perfect excuse to avoid ever having to make serious land concessions and provides useful cover under which to keep building settlements.
<SNIP>
Finally, we are still hearing rumor in the bazaar that President Bush may name Tony Blair, who is making his long goodbye as Britain’s prime minister, as a sort of Peace Czar to deal with the Palestinians. Just when White House policies couldn’t get any more bizarre or counter-productive, along comes this daft notion.
Blair is discredited at home in Britain for launching a war of naked aggression and becoming a serial liar to promote it. He is viewed with hatred and contempt in the Muslim World as a lackey of the Washington neocons. The oleaginous Blair should be selling kitchen appliance or aluminum siding, not dealing with the world’s most explosive issue that he helped worsen when in office. ![[Linked Image from geocities.com]](http://www.geocities.com/artemartialero/bowing.gif) oleaginous: unpleasantly and excessively suave or ingratiating in manner or speech; containing an unusual amount of grease or oil. Of course as we now know, Blair is indeed to be the new "envoy" to the Middle East. Has there ever been a more certifiable fox sent into the henhouse? He must be a fox: our Commander in Chief informed us just yesterday that he and Blair have served together in the same fox-hole.
Steve Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love, to respect and be kind to one another, so that we may grow with peace in mind. (Native American prayer)
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Carpal Tunnel
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CNN Interviews Nir Rosen on Middle East Tensions, U.S. RoleWe created a civil war. This is actually outrageous. Ongoing U.N. envoy to the Middle East peace process, Alvaro De Soto, himself accused the U.S. of fomenting a civil war by training, funding and arming Fatah thugs and inserting them into Gaza to destabilize the Hamas government.
We never gave them a chance. They were democratically elected in an election that was widely recognized as free and fair, even by former President Jimmy Carter.
And then the U.S., along with Israel, Jordan and Egypt trained these gangs and actually put them in Gaza to overthrow the Hamas government. And, of course, it's actually backfired and Fatah was overthrown. But all you're going to do is isolate and further radicalize Hamas.
And so when you say that the U.S. is seeking to ease tensions in the Middle East, I disagree with you. These are tensions that the U.S. actually created in the Middle East. Thanks for your reply, issodhos.
Steve Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love, to respect and be kind to one another, so that we may grow with peace in mind. (Native American prayer)
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Lowenstein is obviously an anti-Western ideologue I haven't read the article yet and I don't know who Lowenstein is but your comment deserves a comment. Is it not possible the author did get something right? But you wouldn't know since you dismissed it before reading it. Is it possible your prejudice may have clouded your objectivity? I don't all the in's and out's of Palestinian politics but I'll read the articles and see what these folks have to say.
ignorance is the enemy without equality there is no liberty America can survive bad policy, but not destruction of our Democratic institutions
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Lowenstein is obviously an anti-Western ideologue I haven't read the article yet and I don't know who Lowenstein is but your comment deserves a comment. Is it not possible the author did get something right? But you wouldn't know since you dismissed it before reading it. Is it possible your prejudice may have clouded your objectivity? I don't all the in's and out's of Palestinian politics but I'll read the articles and see what these folks have to say. Oh my, no, rporter314. Note that I wrote that I had indeed read the entire article -- even though I quickly recognized boilerplate that faithfully reflected 60's New Left influence. Indeed, you admit to not having read the article while suggesting that I dismissed it prior to doing so. Nope. Being the laid back, easy-going, live-and-let-live kinda guy that I am, I gave the writer (and the poster) the benefit of the doubt.:-) Did the author possibly get anything right? Possibly -- either accidentally, or if it supported her anti-Israeli, anti-western paradigm. As to reading articles about Israel and Palestinians, after 40 years of West Bankers and Gazans killing Israelis and Israelis killing West Bankers and Gazans, and after an even longer time of Arabs killing Jews and Jews killing Arabs, -- well, apparently there is some missing incentive to seek peace, wot?;-) Yours, Issodhos
Last edited by issodhos; 06/28/07 06:35 PM.
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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I should not have read the entire thing since Lowenstein is obviously an anti-Western ideologue who is heavily invested in hating all things associated with it -- especially Israel's existance -- and one who believes that if a yak in Outer Mongolia gets a case of the shivers it was somehow caused by the Great Satan America. Sorry I miss read that you did read the article and rejected it because she is an "anti-Western idealogue"? Jennifer Lowenstein is a member of Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions. Who are they? ICAHD FIRST ISRAELI PEACE GROUP TO CALL FOR SANCTIONS From their web site As Israelis, we believe that the only chance for a genuine peace is one that enables the Palestinians to establish what we have, a viable and truly sovereign state of their own. I suspect she is reflecting an impartial view of the situation, condemning both sides and hoping they can meet somewhere in the middle and find resolution. Idealogue? Perhaps but what would that make you? I have long been opposed to unconditional support of Israel. I believe this has led us nowhere as far as a resolution to the Palestinian issue. It would be disingenuous to believe the one-sided support of Israel can in anyway be helpful to the peace process. I do not believe the US can be a part of the solution taking that position. My current solution is for the US to invade Israel-Palestine, capture the leaders of both for negotiating teams, lock them in a room, tell them they can not come out until they resolve their issues. If a two state solution is agreed upon then Israel would be the first to recognize the new sovereign state. If a one state solution is found then everyone in the UN would recognize it in one statement.
Last edited by rporter314; 06/28/07 07:06 PM. Reason: missed comment
ignorance is the enemy without equality there is no liberty America can survive bad policy, but not destruction of our Democratic institutions
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Pooh-Bah
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I suspect she is reflecting an impartial view of the situation, condemning both sides and hoping they can meet somewhere in the middle and find resolution. Idealogue? Perhaps but what would that make you? Doggone it, rporter314, I told you what I am in the post to which you just responded. As I wrote, I am a laid back, easy-going, live-and-let-live kinda guy!:-) But, am I an ideologue? I don't think so. It seems everytime I think I can stop thinking and rest on my 'ideology' someone asks something that compels me to analyse and reconsider my views -- which really, really screws up my "save-a-lot-o-time ideological template -- and causes me to admit that I still don't have all the answers. Unfortunately, I have also found no one else who has all of them. Even more unfortunate, there are many, many folks who believe they do -- and are willing to use force to get me and others to "see the light". Perhaps, "ideologist" would be more accurate?:-) As to the writer, I must admit that my original response was about 1/4 tongue-in-cheek and in response to the way the poster and another poster responded to one of my earlier posts in another thread. However, I do stand behind most of what I wrote. As to the author being anti-western and anti-Israel, even while being Israeli, herself, and in Israel -- that is not at all unusual. It is much like being anti-western and anti-America, even while being American, and in Israel. It is a hallmark of the New Left movement that emerged in the 60's. Yours, Issodhos
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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OK issodhos you have me confused as I don't understand what you are saying. I really hate to harp on this but since I don't understand please help me out and try to clarify what you have said. You said As to the author being anti-western and anti-Israel, even while being Israeli, herself, and in Israel -- that is not at all unusual. On what basis do you assign her the labels "anti-Western" and "anti-Israel". Now according to the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions web site, they are As Israelis, we believe that the only chance for a genuine peace So if being for peace is anti-Western or anti-Israel then certainly you are correct but I don't understand that Orwellian thinking at all. But I suspect this is not what you mean so please help me out and clarify and answer specifically she is anti-Western because => she is anti-Israel because => thanks
Last edited by rporter314; 06/29/07 12:23 AM. Reason: clarification
ignorance is the enemy without equality there is no liberty America can survive bad policy, but not destruction of our Democratic institutions
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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On what basis do you assign her the labels "anti-Western" and "anti-Israel". I am basing that claim on the article provided by the original poster, rporter314. It has the codewording and the familiar boilerplate that shows up over and over again in the writings of the New Left 'social justice' crowd. It is always, "Violence in the West Bank and Gaza are the fault of American policy and Israeli policy. Palestinians are innocent lambs. Hamas is simply taking power that was legitimately theirs. The West Bank and Gaza are a "nation". There would be peace, love, and happiness if not for the Israelis and their American masters. The media is a part of the coverup of what the real truth is and we are the only ones that really know what that truth is." Blah. Blah. Blah. If you are exposed to this crowd for any length of time you soon develope a sensitivity to their presence. But, wuold it help you if I changed my wording to, "IN MY OPINION she is just another anti-western, anti-Israel type? If so, consider it done.:-) By the way, rporter314, your "current solution" has been going on in one form or another for the past 40 years. Why has it not worked? Why do you think it will work now? Got a better idea? Better yet, is there a peaceful solution? If so, does either side want it? If one or the other, or both don't, why not?:-) Yours, Issodhos
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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