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Pooh-Bah
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[quote=Phil Hoskins I love an argument based upon the unsupported assumption of one person then presented as the basis for one's own suppositions and conjectures. It makes following the discussion so, well, hopeless. [/quote]
We all have differing life experiences being exposed for longer or shorter times with various types and kinds of people and organizations, Phil. In doing so, we gather information and impressions differing by degree from that of others (who might indeed never have been exposed to particular types of people and organizations). Such knowledge does not lend itself to links and other 'supportive' background. And besides, there are (sometimes subtle) differences between expressing opinion and presenting argument, one of which is that expressing opinion is not necessarilly about convincing anyone of anything.:-) Yours, Issodhos
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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Pooh-Bah
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[quote=rporter314] I guess I will just be disappointed once again that someone can't answer simple questions. Perhaps I am simply in awe of depth of your answers to my questions, rporter314. :-) Yours, Issodhos
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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[quote=Ron G.] And why is it that we appear to hold the Israelis to a higher standard than we do the Arabs? Is it something inherently racist on our part? Do we say to ourselves, in some secret compartment of our mind, that, well, after all Israel is a child of the Renaissance and the Reformation and the Enlightenment and is therefore civilized, but the Arabs are just a bunch of bloody wogs at heart and we cannot expect any better of them? I think this condition is quite prevalent among advocates (especially 'white' advocates) of group victimhood. And I think that many of them know it, and that is why they go to such lengths to over-compensate for it and atone for their feelings of guilt (they transfer the guilt to those who do not agree with their angst). So, to these folks who secretly believe themselves to be racially or culturally superior, members of a 'victim' group are never to be held responsible for their own actions. The 'victim' group's circumstances are always the fault of the power structure (as long as it is 'white' or has embraced the "white social construct"). The bad things members of a 'victim' group may do is beyond their control because they are simply reacting to a life of oppression and "acting out" that anger. They are not capable of truely functioning like a fully realized human because they have been denied the opportunity by the prevalent power structure to explore higher avenues. etc. ... I love an argument based upon the unsupported assumption of one person then presented as the basis for one's own suppositions and conjectures. It makes following the discussion so, well, hopeless. Were it a formal argument I was making, I'd agree with you: Support - i. e., documentation - would be required. However, what I was positing was some opinions couched as a weakly rhetorical interrogatory; I assumed that the highly tentative nature of my statements would be reasonably read as questions, not necessarily as statements of fact. Now, that does not mean that I do not believe them to be quite correct; but as Issodhos pointed out supra, some things like this derived from long and varied experience are not exactly subject to formal citation - consider them to be anecdotal and, like a jury weighing the evidence, give them the weight they have earned in the course of the unfolding exposition. Over the years I've had a lot of chances to see both left- and right-leaners address these and other issues; my personal experience is that a great many of them feel exactly this way if not exactly for the same reasons. Believe it or not, there are what some might call "bleeding-heart liberals" who are just as arrogantly racist as any ex-colonial colonel-sahib Smythe-Twitleigh type.
Life should be led like a cavalry charge - Theodore Roosevelt
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Contents of this post moved to a new thread: http://server1.capitolhillblue.com/~readerra/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=20111&page=1#Post20111
Last edited by Ron G.; 06/30/07 03:04 AM.
Life should be led like a cavalry charge - Theodore Roosevelt
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Ron, those are good, no great questions, and we've delved deeply into them on this board before. Long ago, when many people who have since moved on were prevalent here, and many who are now here had not arrived.
It may well be worth another delve. It was a long, arduous, dangerous, but IMHO extremely valuable conversation.
I only ask that we take it to its own thread. This discussion is about whether the recent events on Gaza were in some part perpetrated, or at the very least, hoped-for, by the US and Israel.
Steve Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love, to respect and be kind to one another, so that we may grow with peace in mind. (Native American prayer)
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...I only ask that we take it to its own thread. Done.
Life should be led like a cavalry charge - Theodore Roosevelt
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Administrator Bionic Scribe
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Administrator Bionic Scribe
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[quote=Phil Hoskins I love an argument based upon the unsupported assumption of one person then presented as the basis for one's own suppositions and conjectures. It makes following the discussion so, well, hopeless. We all have differing life experiences being exposed for longer or shorter times with various types and kinds of people and organizations, Phil. In doing so, we gather information and impressions differing by degree from that of others (who might indeed never have been exposed to particular types of people and organizations). Such knowledge does not lend itself to links and other 'supportive' background. And besides, there are (sometimes subtle) differences between expressing opinion and presenting argument, one of which is that expressing opinion is not necessarilly about convincing anyone of anything.:-) Yours, Issodhos[/quote] Fair enough and to both you and Ron G, I agree and understand the value of opinions based upon personal experience. I find it helpful to make such statements clearly my opinion.
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul
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Carpal Tunnel
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Saudi king avoids meeting AbbasInstead, the Saudi monarch, who brokered a power-sharing deal between Abbas's Fatah faction and rivals Hamas in February, urged both sides to talk to each other, saying the infighting was benefiting only the Israelis. Obviously another anti-Western ideologue who is heavily invested in hating all things associated with it. ![[Linked Image from aximsite.com]](http://www.aximsite.com/boards/images/smilies/yelrotflmao.gif) No doubt a self-styled "defender of the oppressed" who has convinced himself that those he is defending are so stupid and/or child-like that all the US or Israel has to do is withhold its blessings, causing these 'brothers' to begin killing each other in no time. ![[Linked Image from aximsite.com]](http://www.aximsite.com/boards/images/smilies/rolling2.gif)
Steve Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love, to respect and be kind to one another, so that we may grow with peace in mind. (Native American prayer)
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Bump. Here is a sampling of [i]real[/i] anti-Israel passion. The opening link was written by an Israeli woman, as rporter kindly pointed out. This one is written by a Palestinian woman, one who actually lives her life under the Israeli siege. Very few of those people, whose lives have been lived out under Occupation, hardly any of them can muster anything that resembles sympathy for the plight of Israel. Understandably. And we wonder where suicide bombers come from. If we take just the past week when Israel’s Prime Minister Olmert and the Palestinian President Abbas met with other leaders in Sharm el-Sheikh to discuss the way forward for Palestinians, what emerged was the usual proviso - any concessions made by Israel would depend on Abbas’ progress in bringing an end to violence. This completely ignores the ongoing violence of Israel’s occupation and, in effect, requires the Palestinians to submit to that occupation before they will get any concessions from Israel. It's so hard for people who have not experienced an entire lifetime under Occupation, brutal occupation and poverty, to understand how that brutality affects people. It's so easy to provide the simple remedy of ending the brutality, with positive repercussions. But again, this runs counter to Israel's policy, which supports in Israel exactly the same thing that US Occupation policy supports in the US. Sonja Karkar refers to this article by Naomi Klein, a Canadian Jew. Israel now sends $1.2 billion in "defense" products to the United States--up dramatically from $270 million in 1999. In 2006 Israel exported $3.4 billion in defense products--well over a billion more than it received in US military aid. That makes Israel the fourth-largest arms dealer in the world, overtaking Britain.
Much of this growth has been in the so-called "homeland security" sector. Before 9/11 homeland security barely existed as an industry. By the end of this year, Israeli exports in the sector will reach $1.2 billion--an increase of 20 percent. The key products and services are high-tech fences, unmanned drones, biometric IDs, video and audio surveillance gear, air passenger profiling and prisoner interrogation systems--precisely the tools and technologies Israel has used to lock in the occupied territories.
And that is why the chaos in Gaza and the rest of the region doesn't threaten the bottom line in Tel Aviv, and may actually boost it. Israel has learned to turn endless war into a brand asset, pitching its uprooting, occupation and containment of the Palestinian people as a half-century head start in the "global war on terror."
Steve Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love, to respect and be kind to one another, so that we may grow with peace in mind. (Native American prayer)
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