Capitol Hill Blue Forums Political Issues Guns NRA tests a pet theory

The NRA theory that people should be able to use their guns just because they think they are being assaulted has been shown to have a serious flaw. The NRA lobbied to have the self-defense law passed in Florida as a constitutional thing. Unfortunately, one of their own has now stripped an innocent young man of all of his constitutional rights.

Apparently, when an Amygdaloid is packing some cold iron courage, his imagination can take over and cause him to self defend against kids with Skittles who are trying to run away from him.

Wonder how the NRA will spin this one. The Oopsie! defense?

Better to be safe than sorry. Mr Zimmerman was performing his duty. Mr Zimmerman was armed and had every reason to believe the perpetrator was armed. One can hardly expect Mr Zimmerman to wait around while the perpetrator pulls out his gun and shoots, can one? No Zimmerman did the only rational thing he possibly could. The only person to blame here is the perpetrator - he should've stayed home where he belonged and none of this would have happened. Tragic for Mr Zimmerman to have to go through all this.

Once again Florida hits the Stupid News.
Officers did not even arrest the shooter.
Apparently in many states it is okay for any citizen to kill someone if you suspect they may be up to something suspicious.
Anywhere, on public or private property.

'
Ah, American Liberty!! Ain't it grand!!

The same doctrine which applied in Iraq and Afghanistan, I presume? · ·

If they had found any kind of weapon on the kid we would not be having this conversation, especially if the weapon fell where he lay dying, not safely tucked away in a back pocket where this idiot would never have seen it.

Shooter shoots armed teen, weapon found clutched in his grip, powder residue and signs of recent discharge, stuff like that.

But the kid was armed only with a can of iced tea and some candy, he has a good school record, lots of friends to vouch for his personality, values and outlook on life, he had plans for the future and the smarts and moxy to get there.

This wasn't some sullen gang banging thug, this was a good kid who's only crime was being the wrong color and I hope this shooter gets fried for his actions.

I like to THINK I support Stand Your Ground style laws but I now find I am feeling some reservations. The situation has to reflect some evidence of potential wrongdoing because in the case of a "stand your ground" defense it is difficult or even impossible to prove that the person approaching an armed citizen had demonstrated criminal intent, even if they happened to be armed themselves.

This kind of law differs from a Castle Doctrine because the out of doors is not the same as your private home. Members of the public are all around, people you know and people you don't know.

And this is no longer The Wild West, it's a diverse urban centric industrial nation filled to overflowing with modern technology, stresses of everyday modern life and numerous interactions with persons of every known walk of life.

And the worst part is, even the Wild West had more common sense because there was an unwritten and universally accepted code that said a man had a right to argue with another man without expectation of getting shot.

Everyone knew that everyone else was probably armed, too.
The reason everyone didn't shoot each other to extinction is because cooler heads prevailed and demanded that some semblance of rationality precede the final decision to send someone to their dirt nap and the consequences for shooters doing so irrationally were often as severe as the fate of the victim, usually a hanging was involved.

You didn't shoot a man in the back, you didn't shoot an unarmed man, and you didn't lie in wait either and pursue them surreptitiously while ignoring the demand of law enforcement to BACK DOWN.

Just that last issue itself should have been grounds for this man's arrest and a charge of manslaughter....a police dispatcher acting on authority advised against further pursuit so police could take over and this man decided he knew better, and instead of leaving the scene, took it upon himself to play cop.

Stand Your Ground applies mostly to shopkeepers, people who work alone in deserted areas, persons entering or leaving their own private property or their cars.

It absolutely DOES NOT in ANY way apply to a Neighborhood Watch vigilante who is stalking someone in the dark of night and who is itching for an unsolicited confrontation.

And unless we can instill enough common sense, which apparently is in doubt, then maybe we do need to revert to some sort of "duty to retreat" philosophy.

Once a person demonstrates that they have attempted to retreat from a confrontation, if a confrontation ensues and they are in a place with a reasonable expectation of safety or in their private home or business, then all bets are off and the suspect is fair game.

But this is clearly a predator situation and the young man became prey, unarmed and innocent prey at that.

And it's time to lock up the predator before he does it again.

Even the sponsors of the legislation in Florida have come out against this application of their law. It was, as one put it, "stand your ground" not "pursue and confront." As soon as Mr. Zimmerman got out of his car, he became the aggressor. He outweighed the kid by 100 lbs, and his ego was bigger than that. He wanted to be a "hero, " took criminal justice classes (which clearly didn't take), bought a gun, carried a concealed weapon, and was itching for a confrontation. This, by the way, is not the first time this law has been abused this way. The officer who let Zimmerman leave the scene should be fired. Even if everythimg he said were true (and it wasn't), he should have been taken into custody. But, the kid was black. End of story.

Agreed...scratch my surface and I am forced to admit that I cannot in good conscience support the way the present law is written.

Oh sure, let's say you're ne-er do well approaching my car as I am getting myself and my camera gear stuffed back in for the ride home.
You're babbling something about "I need to borrow your car" and your right hand is headed toward your waistband.

Sorry, I might have to dive into the glove box and present you with the business end of a .38 revolver.
Back off buddy, you're not borrowing anything around here, go find another victim.

Say you're knocking on my door at 3 AM and I know for a fact that my kids are home already and my wife's next to me in bed. I'm grabbing a piece and looking at the security camera and if you don't look familiar, my door will not be open to you. Talk to the camera my friend.
Jiggle that doorknob a little too much and you're going to make me want that .38
Try breaking down the door or heading for a convenient window and it's game on.

Say I am closing up shop with a my little bag which is headed for the bank in the morning.
Stay away from me if you have even a lick of common sense. I'm a shopkeeper and you're not getting that little bag. I definitely will shoot you if you ignore my instruction to "kindly get out of my face so I can go home". I went through too much crap today just to hand it over to some nimrod.

Now...say you're some kid wandering down a dark street in my neighborhood and you "look suspicious".

Hello? 9-1-1? There's a suspicious looking guy wandering around in my neighborhood and I don't know who he is.
What's that? You want me to go down a couple blocks and meet the patrol car so I can give a description? Yup no problem, I am outta here, here's what he looks like so you can pass it on before I see the officers. I am in a white Kia Sportage with no spare tire on the back...yeah the "neighborhood watch" guy, you know me.

See you in a couple, thanks!

I'm not against some version of Stand Your Ground either, but the flip side should be if you make a stupid mistake you will be held responsible. To the full extent of the law.

Isn't that what Reeps want, too, more personal responsibility?

Hey LT its either going to be a "good " shooting or the shooter is going to get prosecuted. Every year there's a lot "doubtful" shootings by LEOs, too ! What I'd like to see is everyone shut up and let the Sanford PD do its thing sans public/political/media pressure(s) ! The present situation is akin to "The Oxbow Incident" and a "lynch mob" mania ! >Mech

Hmm.....Greger......NIce to see you have such a vast respect for the law and constitutional processes ! If you don't like FL law, or how its enforced, you're free not to visit ! Its "early days" in this case and the media, not to mention the usual tribe of "racism" touters are hard at work "convicting the shooter" before the case goes to the GJ !

Apparently the investigating officers) didn't feel they had sufficient "probable cause" to detain the shooter. Doesn't mean he's going to skate on a bogus shooting, either ! But then it might, since all the national press coverage and political grandstanding pretty much ensures there's no venue for him to get a "fair trial" ! >Mech