|
0 members (),
6
guests, and
0
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums59
Topics17,128
Posts314,540
Members6,305
| |
Most Online294
Dec 6th, 2017
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,177 Likes: 254
It's the Despair Quotient! Carpal Tunnel
|
It's the Despair Quotient! Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,177 Likes: 254 |
Agreed, the principle of standing one's ground is a sound one where self defense is concerned.
The issue at hand is one of poorly written law, poorly written, poorly applied and poorly interpreted.
No admonition is made to those who elect to voluntarily pursue and confront when natural law would indicate that deadly force is only called for in immediate circumstances not brought on by the defender.
Standing one's ground should apply only to the ground one occupies at the time of confrontation, provided the person has every right to be there.
Pursuit turns defense into offense. Offense cannot claim protection under self-defense.
You cannot have it both ways.
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,003 Likes: 191
Moderator Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Moderator Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,003 Likes: 191 |
Here's a link to the Florida law, which was adopted verbatim from the NRA "model": Florida Statute 776.032 776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use
of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the
term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the
force that was used was unlawful. See Section 776.012 Use of force in defense of person 776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm. Here's the problematic part: (3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.
Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,939
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,939 |
The more I read the more I am coming to believe that this is actually a testosterone issue on the part of the legislature. "I am confronting you, you are confronting me, my balls are bigger than yours, and you are going DOWN, M----- F-----."
A law like this does not belong on the books. All Zimmermann had to do was turn around and walk away, which is apparently what the kid was trying to do. I say apparently, but that only means I don't know what really happened; I know only what I read. But regardless of what happened, I DO KNOW THIS: if Zimmermann had not let his balls interfere with his brain we would not be having this discussion. When I was a firefighter we and the police called people like this squirrels. I don't know if that term is in use today, but Zimmermann is a textbook definition of such an idiot.
And as to the part of the law that says the police cannot even arrest such a person is just stupid. The NRA at its finest.
Take the nacilbupeR pledge: I solemnly swear that I will help back out all Republicans at the next election.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,003 Likes: 191
Moderator Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Moderator Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,003 Likes: 191 |
It was a simplistic solution to a nonexistent problem that was not subjected to critical analysis.
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.
Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 12,004 Likes: 133
Pooh-Bah
|
|
OP
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 12,004 Likes: 133 |
Looks like the Zimmerman story now includes Martin trying to beat him up. But didn't Martin have the right to aggressively stand his ground using force in the face of a perceived threat? If so, then Zimmerman violated Martin's right to stand his ground by shooting him dead.
The pet NRA theory that has been tested is that packing a gun makes a person more safe, and that gun packers have had, in the past, their right to keep themselves safe abridged by not being allowed to shoot somebody when they get scared. Stand Your Ground laws fix that. The obvious failing in the Zimmerman-Martin example is that Martin did not have a gun with which to shoot Zimmerman before Zimmerman could shoot Martin. There is no right of prior self-defense in the Stand Your Ground law, and there shouldn't be. If you want to be safe, pack heat.
The moral of the story is: don't bring skittles to a self-defense duel when the other guy has a gun.
You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,177 Likes: 254
It's the Despair Quotient! Carpal Tunnel
|
|
It's the Despair Quotient! Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,177 Likes: 254 |
"According to a records search on George, he was previously arrested for domestic violence, resisting an officer without violence and most shockingly, resisting an officer with violence — a felony charge that surely could have landed him in prison.
All three of those arrests, however, were mysteriously closed with no semblance of charges for the Florida resident. So how was someone with a violent past including that of battery against an officer able to carry a 9 mm handgun? Maybe that’s a question Robert Zimmerman should answer …" CR-RESISTING OFFICER WITH VIOLENCE BATTERY ON LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER was CLOSED without trial/prosecution/conviction/sentence. What kind of person gets this sort of special treatment? The son of a Florida Magistrate judge, that's who. Still think this is a fair case?
2005-CF-009525-A-O
ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL
10/05/1983
07/18/2005
Div 10
OKane, Julie H
Criminal Felony
Closed
CR-RESISTING OFFICER WITH VIOLENCE
BATTERY ON LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER
2005-MM-010436-A-O
ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL
10/05/1983
07/18/2005
Orlando
Miller, W Michael
Misdemeanor
Closed
CR-RESISTING OFFICER WITHOUT VIOLENCE
2006-TR-219362-A-O
0244RCN
ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL
12/14/2006
Orlando
Officer, 98 Hearing
Civil Traffic Infraction
Closed
TR- UNLAWFUL SPEED
2006-TR-219364-A-O
0245RCN
ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL
12/14/2006
Orlando
Officer, 98 Hearing
Civil Traffic Infraction
Closed
TR- CERT OF REGISTRATION POSSESS REQ
From where I sit, if an unidentified person pursues me, who clearly is not a law enforcement officer and I'm on public property, and gets in my face, he's going to GET a beating. The only difference is, now I know that the person might be packing. I don't draw anything from the notion that Martin might have laid into Zimmerman other than the fact that he had every right to, Zimmerman being the one on the offensive.
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 802
journeyman
|
|
journeyman
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 802 |
The more I read the more I am coming to believe that this is actually a testosterone issue on the part of the legislature. "I am confronting you, you are confronting me, my balls are bigger than yours, and you are going DOWN, M----- F-----."
A law like this does not belong on the books. All Zimmermann had to do was turn around and walk away, which is apparently what the kid was trying to do. I say apparently, but that only means I don't know what really happened; I know only what I read. But regardless of what happened, I DO KNOW THIS: if Zimmermann had not let his balls interfere with his brain we would not be having this discussion. When I was a firefighter we and the police called people like this squirrels. I don't know if that term is in use today, but Zimmermann is a textbook definition of such an idiot.
And as to the part of the law that says the police cannot even arrest such a person is just stupid. The NRA at its finest. TR, I'm glad you're youthful/agile enough to successfully flee a potential confrontation ! Many of us are too old/fat/handicapped to successfully do so ! Does our physical inabilites abrogate our constitutional and legal rights in your lexicon ? Your canard re the NRA isn't even worthy of reply ! IOW, like the posse killing horses on the way to Ox-Bow Canyon, you've just sided the ilk of the NBPP, USAG Holder and the President ! I don't expect any of you to "own up" let alone dine on the plate of crow you're so adamant on creating ! ! >Mech !
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 12,004 Likes: 133
Pooh-Bah
|
|
OP
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 12,004 Likes: 133 |
Anybody know how to operate an Acme decoder ring?
You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,428 Likes: 1
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,428 Likes: 1 |
Anybody know how to operate an Acme decoder ring? also... in keeping with the interest in this topic... related information
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,177 Likes: 254
It's the Despair Quotient! Carpal Tunnel
|
|
It's the Despair Quotient! Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,177 Likes: 254 |
God if I had a nickel for every reference to the NBPP painting them as some powerful group with actual reach I could retire!
These ass hats could't even cut it in the Nation of Islam, they're lower then the Westboro bunch and the last time they tried voter intimidation they got scooped up by the PD inside of twenty minutes and yet from reading Mech's quoted comment you would think they had numbers in the hundreds of thousands with willing adherents flooding the streets of Anytown USA.
Their numbers? About two hundred.
Gimme a break, would you Mech, turn off Fox for FIVE minutes.
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com
|
|
|
|
|
