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Dec 6th, 2017
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 12,004 Likes: 133
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 12,004 Likes: 133 |
The supposed connection between the Hammonds and their arson conviction (remember, they set fire to someone else's property in violation of the law), and the Bundy Boys' armed takeover of the wildlife refuge as a protest, is less than tenuous.
The burned acreage was managed by the Bureau of Land Management, the refuge by the Fish and Wildlife Service. And the "offending" government entity was the courts, who were following a law created by Republicans to impose mandatory sentences on domestic terrorists - which the Hammonds clearly qualified as being under the law.
It seems the Bundy Boys are just as scatterbrained about the law and reality as our new friend here is... if the protest had been focused on the egregiousness of mandatory sentencing, and had not impaired the functioning of a beautiful wildlife refuge, there would have been a sh!tload of Liberals on their side, including me.
You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
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Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 323
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 323 |
OK! I edited to Hammond, which of course was the intended party all along.
There is no need to deem the accidentally spread fire as a domestic act of terrorism. Accident and no criminal charges, at most with a sum to pay for damages. The BLM people themselves burn that land on a regular basis. They even said the fire was helpful in keeping unwanted weeds down.
The idea that the separation of powers into judicial, executive and legislative branches does not make the government, the state, the feds, the agencies at a collective responsibility to upkeep a nation of justice. Now that's a scatterbrain idea, if ever I heard one!
Cowardly men always plot to label Freedom as anarchy!
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 12,004 Likes: 133
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 12,004 Likes: 133 |
There is no need to deem the accidentally spread fire as a domestic act of terrorism. Accident and no criminal charges, at most with a sum to pay for damages. The BLM people themselves burn that land on a regular basis. They even said the fire was helpful in keeping unwanted weeds down. That is all incorrect. The idea that the separation of powers into judicial, executive and legislative branches does not make the government, the state, the feds, the agencies at a collective responsibility to upkeep a nation of justice. Now that's a scatterbrain idea, if ever I heard one! What does that have to do with the topic?
You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
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Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 323
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 323 |
So the topic clarifies that judging on hearsay and without due process is the only way to go? Prejudice is another name for that system.
Get your facts straight, logtroll!
Yeah, Mill is still explosive stuff to the ruling classes!
There is nothing so ominous to freedom, as when the liberators fear it.
Cowardly men always plot to label Freedom as anarchy!
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 12,004 Likes: 133
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 12,004 Likes: 133 |
So the topic clarifies that judging on hearsay and without due process is the only way to go? Prejudice is another name for that system.
Get your facts straight, logtroll! You are condemning your own habit... remarkable. My facts come from the lawsuit, where do yours come from? Which prevail in the real world? I don't see any facts anywhere in your posts - I only see odd assumptions "supporting" wacky theories.
You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,083 Likes: 134
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,083 Likes: 134 |
yes i reject reality as well Those who admit any limit to what a government may do, ... stand out as brilliant exceptions among the political thinkers of the Continent. while he was speaking of political thought in europe we already had a Constitution which you have ignored, which does limit government Thus the government is not the source of property rights you reject reality and as NWP explained property rights and its practice in America, we are left with only one conclusion (since you are not the source of anyone's property rights) .... choose among native Americans, whichever infinite force of nature you believe, or government if you chose native Americans, then give back the land you think you own if you chose God, present the land patent if there is no other choice, you may present the deed you have filed in the county you reside, which through a title search will revel the primary source for the land, be it the governments Spain, France, Britain or the US (or other government, Russia is an example) you can make your rejection of reality be actual by discovering an unknown island, claim it for yourself and then the property emanate from you, a sovereign citizen in your own right with all concomitant rights and hereditaments and appurtenances conveyed thereof if you believe you are the source for your land ownership, why should I respect your claim, personally or even legally? citing JSM does not carry the day
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty
America can survive bad policy, but not destruction of our Democratic institutions
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 12,004 Likes: 133
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 12,004 Likes: 133 |
Arson conviction - DOJ Testimony on one of the fires: The jury convicted both of the Hammonds of using fire to destroy federal property for a 2001 arson known as the Hardie-Hammond Fire, located in the Steens Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Area. Witnesses at trial, including a relative of the Hammonds, testified the arson occurred shortly after Steven Hammond and his hunting party illegally slaughtered several deer on BLM property. Jurors were told that Steven Hammond handed out “Strike Anywhere” matches with instructions that they be lit and dropped on the ground because they were going to “light up the whole country on fire.” One witness testified that he barely escaped the eight to ten foot high flames caused by the arson. The fire consumed 139 acres of public land and destroyed all evidence of the game violations. After committing the arson, Steven Hammond called the BLM office in Burns, Oregon and claimed the fire was started on Hammond property to burn off invasive species and had inadvertently burned onto public lands. Dwight and Steven Hammond told one of their relatives to keep his mouth shut and that nobody needed to know about the fire. The second fire: The jury also convicted Steven Hammond of using fire to destroy federal property regarding a 2006 arson known as the Krumbo Butte Fire located in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge and Steen Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Area. An August lightning storm started numerous fires and a burn ban was in effect while BLM firefighters fought those fires. Despite the ban, without permission or notification to BLM, Steven Hammond started several “back fires” in an attempt save the ranch’s winter feed. The fires burned onto public land and were seen by BLM firefighters camped nearby. The firefighters took steps to ensure their safety and reported the arsons.
You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
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Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 323
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 323 |
We were discussing the origins of property rights in general and elementary terms. How can it be that property rights in America suddenly starts in 1776 or what ever year you prefer?
Cowardly men always plot to label Freedom as anarchy!
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 47,430 Likes: 373
Member CHB-OG
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OP
Member CHB-OG
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 47,430 Likes: 373 |
FYI, everybody - Hammond is one (two) of the arsonists, Ammon is Cliven Bundy's son. Details, details...  (Facts that most of non-SovCits already knew.  )
Contrarian, extraordinaire
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 47,430 Likes: 373
Member CHB-OG
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OP
Member CHB-OG
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 47,430 Likes: 373 |
Don't you think it the least strange that the original judge in the case, when sentencing, clearly stated the law mandates a minimum of two years in prison (I believe it was), but that he could not let his conscience make such a harsh sentence. Oh so wrong again. The minimum sentence was five years because conservatives and Bill Clinton made it that way in the 90s called Minimum Sentencing. The sentencing judge deemed the five year minimum too harsh and reduced the sentence. The feds came back and said: You can't do that judge, put the Hammonds back into prison. That is when the Bundys stepped in...
Contrarian, extraordinaire
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