Originally Posted by NW Ponderer
How doctrinaire! There clearly has been no advancement of thought or integration of ideas since 1848, which is why, of course, the world is populated with naturally formed communist societies that were the inevitable result that Marx surmised. ThumbsUp Oh, wait...

There were concepts that Marx was absolutely correct about - especially "alienated labor" - but his prognostication was, shall we say, a wee bit off.

I would agree with the sentiment expressed that "This dialectical and antagonistic relationship cannot be reconciled with temporary measures." (emphasis added) I am not, therefore, asserting them. I am instead suggesting permanent changes, akin to the Sozialgesetzbuch in Germany. Social Security and Medicare were not conceived of as "temporary measures". Indeed, Social Security in the United States has lasted longer than the Soviet Union did. That's an important point, so I emphasized it.

I do not believe the "means of production" should reside primarily in government hands. I believe in private ownership, so I am no communist. Nor do I believe the welfare of society should be in the hands of the private sector (so I am no neocon). They have separate roles in our society and spheres of influence that should be properly demarcated. Marx did indeed see "Socialism as a historical step toward Communism." And that is where he was so fundamentally wrong. Others have properly recognized that alienation of labor does not inevitably lead to the proletariat revolution, which is why all communist proponents have sought to impose it by force. Marx himself was a lousy Marxist and did not actually believe his own press. Communism has never existed as Marx envisioned it because the premise was faulty. He opined that it would arise by natural progression, and, as I said, he was completely wrong. He assumed that society would not evolve to address the conditions that he properly identified. When he realized that, rather than modifying his views (as a genuine scientist would have), he agitated to create his proletariat revolution. Lenin and Mao and every other "communist" leader has followed this course, rather than his theory.

Many of Marx's insights have been adopted by mainstream economists. Labor is now recognized as a fundamental component of "capitalism" and the idea of "labor power" is fully integrated into academic economic thoughts and theories. Unions are one manifestation of this integration as is "The Department of Labor." We monitor Labor statistics and it affects perception of the economy. These are all good things. Society has evolved, economic thought has evolved and we are all better for it.

How confused, dear boy. Not to mention you seem to confound the role of Socialism in the development of the economies of the world with some non-formed idea of how Capitalism is going to help labor. No, keeping tabs on the exploitation of labor is not the answer. ROTFMOL

While interesting, it is, of course, nonsense. Or can you point out where that has actually happened? Where Capitalism has become Socialism? Is there an exemplar of said theory other than in the world of magical thinking?
The fundamental question is: who is to control the means of production? And how does the conflict between concentration of wealth, an indispensable tenet of Capitalism, and the equitable distribution of said wealth occur?
The conflict between private ownership and economic oppression is evident everywhere. I'm sure you can find it in your own life as well.
Given the reality of the world, might it be possible that you are wrong and Marx was right? Just a thought ROTFMOL

BTW - if Marx's time is the problem you might want to read Why Marx was Right from 2011.

Last edited by Ezekiel; 08/28/16 07:28 PM.

"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
Lenny Bruce

"The cleverest of all, in my opinion, is the man who calls himself a fool at least once a month."
Dostoevsky