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Dec 6th, 2017
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Joined: Aug 2005
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old hand
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OP
old hand
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,388 |
So, stop all this talk of building parties unless we are ready to knuckle down and sacrifice our own lives to this work, satisfied in the knowledge that most likely it will be our children and grandchildren who actually see the rewards of our efforts. There are people who have and continue to do that. Seek and you shall find. Don't judge others by yourself.
"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
Lenny Bruce
"The cleverest of all, in my opinion, is the man who calls himself a fool at least once a month."
Dostoevsky
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,003 Likes: 191
Moderator Carpal Tunnel
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Moderator Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,003 Likes: 191 |
My driving partner is as "country conservative" as you can get. But we have great discussions, and he is persuadable. For example, we had a long discussion about universal health care. We got as far as agreeing that we should have it, but gets hung up on how we proceed.
I think the answer is subject matter advocacy, rather than a new party. There are universal ideals that can be tapped into. Then use that to take control of the party. The Democratic party is closer to that than the Republicans, in my view.
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.
Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 12,004 Likes: 133
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 12,004 Likes: 133 |
do you hear what you are saying???? if you have to brainwash someone you have no point. It is just an exercise in psychology, not a change on political philosophy. Limbaugh had it right several years ago, when he said conservative have to elucidate a cogent message which will appeal to the masses. They have no spokesman to accomplish that because they have no message. Likewise, liberals need to find the message which will appeal to people. My point is that Trump will be the next president as a direct result of decades of right-wing brainwashing, finished off by an experienced unethical salesman with no moral compass. It looks like a hard fact to me that a large portion of the electorate are more responsive to that approach than the assumption that everyone can be educated and reasoned with. I am not advocating unethical salesmanship. I am suggesting that the message will only get to some folks through tried and true sales techniques, which happen to be a form of brainwashing. I can guarantee you that Ezekial's approach will never get anywhere with the 'white working class', except to make them even more resistant to progressive issues and solutions. I know, I've spent many hundreds of hours trying it. To be blunt again, dumb people are really put off by smart people (especially when the smart ones resort to juvenile insults).
You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,177 Likes: 254
It's the Despair Quotient! Carpal Tunnel
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It's the Despair Quotient! Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,177 Likes: 254 |
So, stop all this talk of building parties unless we are ready to knuckle down and sacrifice our own lives to this work, satisfied in the knowledge that most likely it will be our children and grandchildren who actually see the rewards of our efforts. There are people who have and continue to do that. Seek and you shall find. Don't judge others by yourself. You still don't get it. News flash, this is not about Jeff Haas. You still don't get it. I am advocating efficiency and trackable results. We had the tools (Alinsky) we threw them away, the right picked up that tool and realized it was effective. We have the money, Bernie proved it can be crowdsourced. And we have the model, the Tea Party purged the GOP in less than two years and we got our asses handed to us in 2010 and 2014 by people who used our best tools against us. Yet here you sit, telling me I didn't look hard enough for committed people. Well sir, if there were so many of those committed souls DOING that hard work the last 30 years of Green Party USA's existence, the USA Greens would be somewhere equivalent to their overseas partners, not disappearing faster than hibernating Grizzlies in the Yukon Delta. But okay Ezekiel, keep telling yourself that this is about Jeff Haas not believing hard enough. 
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 12,004 Likes: 133
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 12,004 Likes: 133 |
I'm still waiting for Zeke to share some of what they have developed. When I ask, I just get smartass insults back, which is a pretty good sign of someone blowing smoke.
You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,388
old hand
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OP
old hand
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,388 |
So, stop all this talk of building parties unless we are ready to knuckle down and sacrifice our own lives to this work, satisfied in the knowledge that most likely it will be our children and grandchildren who actually see the rewards of our efforts. There are people who have and continue to do that. Seek and you shall find. Don't judge others by yourself. You still don't get it. News flash, this is not about Jeff Haas. You still don't get it. I am advocating efficiency and trackable results. We had the tools (Alinsky) we threw them away, the right picked up that tool and realized it was effective. We have the money, Bernie proved it can be crowdsourced. And we have the model, the Tea Party purged the GOP in less than two years and we got our asses handed to us in 2010 and 2014 by people who used our best tools against us. Yet here you sit, telling me I didn't look hard enough for committed people. Well sir, if there were so many of those committed souls DOING that hard work the last 30 years of Green Party USA's existence, the USA Greens would be somewhere equivalent to their overseas partners, not disappearing faster than hibernating Grizzlies in the Yukon Delta. But okay Ezekiel, keep telling yourself that this is about Jeff Haas not believing hard enough. You have misunderstood, once again It's not about you - unless you count yourself among those incapable of creating a movement. I am saying that it has been done and will be done, and there are people who are willing to do it. You are caught in this idea about what just happened. That cannot change. People, including the man whose picture I posted today, have created new parties and new movements. So I KNOW FIRST HAND that it can be done. The sacrifice is tremendous. But it can happen.
"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
Lenny Bruce
"The cleverest of all, in my opinion, is the man who calls himself a fool at least once a month."
Dostoevsky
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,388
old hand
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OP
old hand
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,388 |
do you hear what you are saying???? if you have to brainwash someone you have no point. It is just an exercise in psychology, not a change on political philosophy. Limbaugh had it right several years ago, when he said conservative have to elucidate a cogent message which will appeal to the masses. They have no spokesman to accomplish that because they have no message. Likewise, liberals need to find the message which will appeal to people. My point is that Trump will be the next president as a direct result of decades of right-wing brainwashing, finished off by an experienced unethical salesman with no moral compass. It looks like a hard fact to me that a large portion of the electorate are more responsive to that approach than the assumption that everyone can be educated and reasoned with. I am not advocating unethical salesmanship. I am suggesting that the message will only get to some folks through tried and true sales techniques, which happen to be a form of brainwashing. I can guarantee you that Ezekial's approach will never get anywhere with the 'white working class', except to make them even more resistant to progressive issues and solutions. I know, I've spent many hundreds of hours trying it. To be blunt again, dumb people are really put off by smart people (especially when the smart ones resort to juvenile insults). 100 years of Union organizing says you are wrong. Phew, so glad we cleared that up. 
"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
Lenny Bruce
"The cleverest of all, in my opinion, is the man who calls himself a fool at least once a month."
Dostoevsky
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,388
old hand
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OP
old hand
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,388 |
My driving partner is as "country conservative" as you can get. But we have great discussions, and he is persuadable. For example, we had a long discussion about universal health care. We got as far as agreeing that we should have it, but gets hung up on how we proceed.
I think the answer is subject matter advocacy, rather than a new party. There are universal ideals that can be tapped into. Then use that to take control of the party. The Democratic party is closer to that than the Republicans, in my view. One question: how do you get corporate money out of the equation? How can the Dems do a 180 and toss all their lobbyists and donors and big banks out and say, now we are a different party.
"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
Lenny Bruce
"The cleverest of all, in my opinion, is the man who calls himself a fool at least once a month."
Dostoevsky
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,388
old hand
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OP
old hand
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,388 |
I'm still waiting for Zeke to share some of what they have developed. When I ask, I just get smartass insults back, which is a pretty good sign of someone blowing smoke. Feeling lonely, are we?
"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
Lenny Bruce
"The cleverest of all, in my opinion, is the man who calls himself a fool at least once a month."
Dostoevsky
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 12,004 Likes: 133
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 12,004 Likes: 133 |
My driving partner is as "country conservative" as you can get. But we have great discussions, and he is persuadable. For example, we had a long discussion about universal health care. We got as far as agreeing that we should have it, but gets hung up on how we proceed.
I think the answer is subject matter advocacy, rather than a new party. There are universal ideals that can be tapped into. Then use that to take control of the party. The Democratic party is closer to that than the Republicans, in my view. One question: how do you get corporate money out of the equation? How can the Dems do a 180 and toss all their lobbyists and donors and big banks out and say, now we are a different party. Good question. I guess you haven't made any progress on the answer, yet?
You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
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