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Dec 6th, 2017
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Joined: Mar 2003
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Joined: Mar 2003
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Athens, TN ... Democrats stole elections on a regular basis and you said "you cite history". Actually I think you cite conservative beliefs and ideology. I know it is popular among conservatives to cite big cities etc as Democrat wastelands but when you say you are citing actual facts ... you better be citing real live facts. and not conservatives beliefs. So here is a snippet about Athens (because I have been there). Fraud was suspected—to this day many Athens citizens firmly believe that ballot boxes were swapped—but there was no proof. When you make blanket statements, all I have to do is prove one part is not true nor valid to refute your whole statement ... it is the way logical argument works.
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty
America can survive bad policy, but not destruction of our Democratic institutions
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 47,433 Likes: 373
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Member CHB-OG
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 47,433 Likes: 373 |
I've been enjoying my ride on my high horse. The view from up here is marvelous. I can see everyone's faults. Anyone else wanna go for a canter? I'll ride with you. Wanna be front or back rider? 
Contrarian, extraordinaire
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,095 Likes: 135
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,095 Likes: 135 |
I think the point was not that probably all presidents have lied but the extent Mr Trump lies and ALL of his defenders deny he lies.
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty
America can survive bad policy, but not destruction of our Democratic institutions
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,655
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"The idea behind the Electoral College is to force a Presidential candidate build a large coalition of voters from every state in the country." The idea behind the EC was to bring slave states into the Union. This is where the 5/8 clouting of black male slaves came from.  This is another example of your ignorance pdx rick. It was the 3/5 compromise not the 5/8 compromise... 5/8...3/5...meh - the fact remains that the EC is very much tied to slavery. Standard civics-class accounts of the Electoral College rarely mention the real demon dooming direct national election in 1787 and 1803: slavery.
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At the Philadelphia convention, the visionary Pennsylvanian James Wilson proposed direct national election of the president. But the savvy Virginian James Madison responded that such a system would prove unacceptable to the South: “The right of suffrage was much more diffusive [i.e., extensive] in the Northern than the Southern States; and the latter could have no influence in the election on the score of Negroes.” In other words, in a direct election system, the North would outnumber the South, whose many slaves (more than half a million in all) of course could not vote. But the Electoral College—a prototype of which Madison proposed in this same speech—instead let each southern state count its slaves, albeit with a two-fifths discount, in computing its share of the overall count.
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If the system’s pro-slavery tilt was not overwhelmingly obvious when the Constitution was ratified, it quickly became so. For 32 of the Constitution’s first 36 years, a white slaveholding Virginian occupied the presidency. We don't have slavery any longer - much to most modern Conservative's chagrin.  That comment is an insult to and a lie about Conservatives. 1870s Klan Members and 1930s Jim Crow writing Conservative Southern Democrats would disagree with you. What's that thing about conserving the past? Was slavery a consideration in writing our Constitution? Yes, it was. Had the 3/5 compromise not been agreed to it is very unlikely that our Constitution would have been written, ratified, and in existence so that our government could live up to the ideal promised in our Declaration of Independence. The ideal that "all men* are created equal and endowed by their Creator** with certain unalienable Rights, that among those are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness..." So your attempts to tarnish our Constitution with slavery does not work. It doesn't because our Founding Fathers had to work with the society that they lived in, not the society of today. By that definition you are using anyone who wants to preserve any of the New Deal is a Conservative. *Jefferson was speaking of mankind not just the male of the species. **Jefferson was a deist, for the lack of a better word, and did not mean the Judaeo-Christian concept of god.
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,655
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Posts: 1,655 |
I'm going to challenge you again, friend. It's apparent you read the title, but not the substance, of the article. If you had, you wouldn't have linked it, as it undermines your argument. Which link are you referring to? It is very difficult to try to reply to you, logtroll, and pdx rick at the same time. Add to that the fact that I probably one of the world's worst typists makes it even more of a challenge.
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 47,433 Likes: 373
Member CHB-OG
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Member CHB-OG
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 47,433 Likes: 373 |
I'm going to challenge you again, friend. It's apparent you read the title, but not the substance, of the article. If you had, you wouldn't have linked it, as it undermines your argument. Which link are you referring to? It is very difficult to try to reply to you, logtroll, and pdx rick at the same time. Add to that the fact that I probably one of the world's worst typists makes it even more of a challenge. I already put you up for a raise. It's up to the mods now.
Contrarian, extraordinaire
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,003 Likes: 191
Moderator Carpal Tunnel
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OP
Moderator Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,003 Likes: 191 |
You are taking my reply to logtroll about the Electoral College out of context. As James Madison said "Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm." That is why I said the purpose of the Electoral College is not to produce superior leaders. The purpose of the Electoral College is, as your links state and I wholeheartedly agree, to balance the power of small states against the power of the big states. If that was in reply to me, my friend, it is in error. As Hamilton (or Madison, no one is entirely sure) stated, in Federalist 68, "It was desirable that the sense of the people should operate in the choice of the person to whom so important a trust was to be confided. This end will be answered by committing the right of making it, not to any preestablished body, but to men chosen by the people for the special purpose, and at the particular conjuncture." Note, not a selection by States on behalf of States, but from the people, and "that the Executive should be independent for his continuance in office on all but the people themselves." It was Hamilton's (or Madison's) hope that "The process of election affords a moral certainty, that the office of President will never fall to the lot of any man who is not in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications." I think we all agree it failed to do that in this instance, which was, I think, logtroll's point. Moreover, if the only think you discerned from my link was that the EC was "to balance the power of small states against the power of the big states", then you have missed, entirely, the import of those citations. In short, you are decidedly wrong.
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 12,005 Likes: 133 |
The purpose of the Electoral College is, as your links state and I wholeheartedly agree, to balance the power of small states against the power of the big states. I know you are being kept quite busy, but I have asked nicely twice already - do you have any examples of the electoral college accomplishing what you claim to the benefit of the "small states" or to the Nation? When has it balanced the power between states?
You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,003 Likes: 191
Moderator Carpal Tunnel
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OP
Moderator Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,003 Likes: 191 |
I'm going to challenge you again, friend. It's apparent you read the title, but not the substance, of the article. If you had, you wouldn't have linked it, as it undermines your argument. Which link are you referring to? It is very difficult to try to reply to you, logtroll, and pdx rick at the same time. Add to that the fact that I probably one of the world's worst typists makes it even more of a challenge. There was only one link in your reply: to Slate. It did not support your conclusion.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,655
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member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,655 |
I'm going to challenge you again, friend. It's apparent you read the title, but not the substance, of the article. If you had, you wouldn't have linked it, as it undermines your argument. Which link are you referring to? It is very difficult to try to reply to you, logtroll, and pdx rick at the same time. Add to that the fact that I probably one of the world's worst typists makes it even more of a challenge. There was only one link in your reply, to Slate. It did not support your conclusion. That link was posted by pdx rick not me, so of course it did not support my claim.
The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
Conservative Revolutionary
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