Capitol Hill Blue Forums Political Issues Politics In General Where have all the conservatives gone?

You would think that after some 240-odd years of history that there would lots of easily identifiable tangible benefits resulting from "one of the things that makes our Constitution the greatest political/legal document ever written".

That you are participating in a free and open political discussion is a very easily identifiable tangible benefit of our Constitution. The fact that 44 times the leadership of our government has peacefully changed hands is another one. The amendment process of Article V of our Constitution is another. Logtroll are you forced to be a member of the official state religion? No, you are not because there isn't an official state religion. There are lots of easily identifiable tangible benefits that come from our Constitution. It is unfortunate that you are unable to see them when they are an integral part of your life!

The subject is the electoral college, not the Constitution in general. I have made that clear numerous times.

Please reread my comments with that in mind, and respond accordingly.

In keeping with logtroll's admonition to keep the conversation to the Electoral College.

The proof that this form of electing a president is obsolete and should be replaced, comes from the Founding Fathers themselves, specifically The Federalist Papers : No. 68. "The process of election affords a moral certainty, that the office of President will never fall to the lot of any man who is not in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications."

The 2016 Electoral College failed in their Constitutional task to prevent the unqualified from attaining the Office of President in Donald (Coward, Misogynist, Traitorous, Lying, Spiller of Secrets, etc) Trump. Best argument to move to a true Democratic Republic form of Government - one person one vote. They who has the most votes wins, now that is a true representative form of government.

I admit, I am opinionated, and even arrogant when it comes to subjects I know well. For many years I defended the Electoral College - and for certain purposes I still do (although weakly anymore). In conception it is a bulwark against things going horribly wrong. But, as with many things in government, it has not worked as advertised, and is showing its decrepitude. Trump should never have happened, that is certainly true. The "fail safe" function of the EC was the last vestige of respectability it possessed, but it failed spectacularly to keep us safe.

There are structural and social impediments to fixing things that are wrong in government, and that includes specifically, the EC; more generally, the Constitution; and even more generally, government itself. More than two-thirds of the voting population is wedded to one or another major party. That loyalty, in its current form, prevents consideration of ideas from "the other side". Even things that are universally popular among the population cannot get traction in Congress or the White House. Obama, for his faults, remained committed to keeping that dialog open, but he never had a receptive audience, and eventually had to move on.

The antidote, I thought, was going to be a strong Supreme Court opinion striking down partisan gerrymandering. That might have begun steering this ponderous ship in the proper direction. But that institution is also too far gone, now. It has been infected with hyper-partisanship, just like the other branches. It may eventually recover, with proper timing and circumstances, but I don't see a significant alteration in my lifetime, which brings on depressive thoughts.

I would have thought that conservatives would be in favor of preserving these institutions, and as a former "conservative" would have myself, but I see just how naive I was, and perhaps am, still. Laws, norms, and constitutional expectations still motivate me, though; the grand experiment may yet recover from the partisan stupidity, but I have my doubts. I think, if the next election goes well, the next generation may have a chance to right the ship. I may be around to see that happen (or falter). When I think that way, I get optimistic again. There are big things to get done, and soon. Conservatives, and conservatism, stand in the way of that, so are now obsolete. I wish them/it well in their/its dotage.

Back in the founders day, government in general was a plaything of the wealthy. They set things up so that wealthy land and slave holders would be in charge. Wealthy land and slave holders are still in charge.(our Corporate Overlords)

The point I've made before is that the Electoral College gave voters a chance to voice their opinions but the wealthy land and slave holders made the final decision.(their Corporate Overlords)

When the FFs put their heads together there were only a handful of states and the total population was under 4 million. There was a lot they didn't and couldn't foresee, but the genius of the contract they put forth has resonated down the ages. With just a few nips and tucks it has survived intact. Because the boys made it flexible.

The Electoral College has outlived its usefulness.

You asked a general question about our Constitution and I answered it. Now because you don't like my answer you are saying I'm not responding properly. Despite what you think I did respond properly.

The ONLY reason liberals want to get rid of the Electoral College is because Hillary Clinton lost! Had the results of the election been reversed, Trump winning the popular vote but losing in the Electoral College, they would not have anything bad to say about it. Well that's too freaking bad! Changing the rules after they cost you the election is not how a representative democracy works.

Our Founding Fathers knew that people of virtue would not always be in our government.

"Occupants of public offices love power and are prone to abuse it." George Washington
"Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm." All men having power ought to be distrusted to a certain degree." James Madison

That those comments were made shows that the members of the Constitutional Convention did not create the Electoral College with the idea of it being protection against unqualified people from becoming our President.

The reason that the quality of people in our government has declined is not due to the failure of anything our Founding Fathers did. We have people running our government who aren't qualified to run a small business. They are there because we have stopped doing what we should be doing. What we should be doing is reverse these numbers, the approval rating and reelection rate for members of Congress. Currently Congress has an approval rating of about 11% and a reelection rate of 95%.

Another reason the Electoral College did not fail is due how we look to whoever is the President to fix our country while we keep reelecting incompetent idiots to Congress. Congress run is supposed to run our country not our current President. How can any President, regardless of party, fix problems in four to eight years that the idiots in Congress who are, or have been, there for decades? It can't be done! Our Presidents are not the cause of what is wrong with America, WE ARE!

You are a dishonest man. I will not engage with you any further.

You lose that argument with the first sentence. Well done! As a purported "classical liberal" that conception just doesn't work. Moreover, painting with only one color tends to be very boring. Put the labeler away and address the substance, please. There are many of us, liberal and conservative alike, who have found the EC unworkable. Do you know how long it has been argued to be unworkable? I'll give you a hint: Madison was still alive.

Even Madison disagrees with you on that one. That's the problem with relying on conservative websites for your quotes, you miss the context (and the point).

Well, yeah, it is. They created parties.Now we are getting somewhere...Yes, and how did we fix that?
See, we can find common ground.
Hmmm. So it wasn't all Obama's fault? Bravo!