Originally Posted by NW Ponderer
Originally Posted by Senator Hatrack
If you truly do believe in the Jeffersonian definition of the establishment of religion you would also say that Lemon v. Kurtzman is wrong. But you didn't. Instead you cited it as a good example of how the Supreme Court has correctly ruled on the separation of church and state.
I'm sorry, SH, but you missed the principle point of the First Amendment Establishment clause. It does not say "a religion". Any where. Go look... I'll wait.
As an atheist the principle of the First Amendment is very important to me. A principle I understand quite well. What you missed is that in order or our government to fund something, whether it is a charity or a religion it must first chose the one it is to fund. That is why I said "a religion." My comment was about the action our government would take after it had chosen a religion.
Originally Posted by NW Ponderer
Okay, no I won't. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"... Establishment comes in many forms, which is why the SCt established the Lemon test. Funding is just the most obvious. Putting up religious iconography is another (easy) one (Ten Commanments, Crosses). How about if the government established a policy of not serving pork or beef in any government cafeterias or exempting pork or beef products from FDA or USDA regulation?
In regards to the First Amendment the word establishment only means to fund a religion with taxes. Again, my saying "a religion" is that the funds cannot given until after one has been chosen. The phrasing of the First Amendment was to prevent Congress from choosing any religion.

Originally Posted by NW Ponderer
Your interpretation of Jefferson is... Unique. I see no conflict between Lemon and Jefferson.
Quote
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."
Originally Posted by NW Ponderer
Maybe you can explain that?
That's because there isn't a conflict between them. The problem here is not the Lemon Test. The problem is caused by those who want turn our country into the Christian nation they think it is. They want to make our government a Christian government. These "Christians" constantly claim that because the words separation of church and state are not in our Constitution that they should not be kept apart. These "Christians" don't understand that when Jefferson wrote that phrase he was talking about the First Amendment.

The state can never straighten the crooked timber of humanity.
I'm a conservative because I question authority.
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