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Dec 6th, 2017
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 3,022 Likes: 63
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 3,022 Likes: 63 |
This analysis could be meaningful if everything is equal. Unfortunately it is not.
When Pres Bush assumed office there was not a raging contraction in the the economy vis a vis when Pres Obama etc etc.
While it is probably true and valid there is a whole lot of hypocrisy going around, a little more care should be taken when using blanket statements about debt, deficits, etc What that showed is the party that holds the White is all in favor of raising the debt ceiling. When that party is out of the White House or the other party holds the white house, they are against raising it. Quite simple really. Deficits, adding to the debt. Republicans don't complain about it when Trump is president, although they hollered at the top of their lungs about it when Obama was president. Democrats are hollering now with Trump, but not when Obama was president. They didn't care then, but do now. Same with G.W. Bush, Republicans willing to raise the debt to whatever extent, Democrats were hollering. The reverse was true with Bill Clinton.
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 3,022 Likes: 63
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 3,022 Likes: 63 |
I was using the numbers to show how and why most Republicans think impeachment is a very partisan political vendetta. Perhaps in general, but not in this case. The evidence and the witnesses validate that there was a quid pro quo aka extortion carried-out by the POTUS, Donald J Trump. We'll see.
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,110 Likes: 136
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,110 Likes: 136 |
Republicans perceive the Democrats are out to remove Trump not because he did something that would warrant impeachment. But as revenge for losing an election. If I recollect correctly, that was in fact Trump's rationalization and attack on Democrats for opposing him on his agenda. My take is of course the Democrats were upset about losing an election which had several intruding factors from the normal. Can you imagine if Dir Comey came out and said the FBI was investigating the Trump campaign for possible criminal conspiracy with the Russians and suppose he lost!!!!!! But the only reason I can see for Democrats to "be after" MR Trump is the egregiously odious behavior which should have disqualified him from being a candidate and his equally egregiously damaging attacks on America and its values. Simply being an amoral slug is not an impeachable offense. Abusing the office of the president is. "revenge for losing an election" is simply a cheap non-thinking persons response to reality. The reality is even Trump supporters recognize he is a loathsome person, but of course etc etc
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty
America can survive bad policy, but not destruction of our Democratic institutions
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,110 Likes: 136
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,110 Likes: 136 |
Abusing statistics like that is the same as claiming the occupant of the WH is responsible for the GDP or stock market index. Without proper context, it doesn't have much value.
ignorance is the enemy
without equality there is no liberty
America can survive bad policy, but not destruction of our Democratic institutions
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 47,433 Likes: 373
Member CHB-OG
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Member CHB-OG
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 47,433 Likes: 373 |
I was using the numbers to show how and why most Republicans think impeachment is a very partisan political vendetta. Perhaps in general, but not in this case. The evidence and the witnesses validate that there was a quid pro quo aka extortion carried-out by the POTUS, Donald J Trump. We'll see. Trump, Guiliani, and Mulvaney all admitting on TV that there was a quid pro quo hasn't convinced you? Not even Bill Taylor's testimony and transcript? 
Contrarian, extraordinaire
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 47,433 Likes: 373
Member CHB-OG
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Member CHB-OG
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 47,433 Likes: 373 |
Abusing statistics like that is the same as claiming the occupant of the WH is responsible for the GDP or stock market index. Without proper context, it doesn't have much value. Since Trump has been elected, rightwingers have lost their minds: Up is now down, bad is now good, committing a crime is no longer a crime. 
Contrarian, extraordinaire
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,003 Likes: 191
Moderator Carpal Tunnel
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Moderator Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 18,003 Likes: 191 |
How soon we forget: During Barack Obama's tenure as President of the United States from 2009 to 2017, certain Republican members of Congress, as well as Democratic congressman Dennis Kucinich,[1] stated that Obama had engaged in impeachable activity and that he might face attempts to remove him from office.[2] Rationales offered for possible impeachment included false claims[3] that Obama was born outside the United States, that he allegedly allowed people to use bathrooms based on their gender identity, an alleged White House cover-up after the 2012 Benghazi attack, and failure to enforce immigration laws. No list of articles of impeachment was ever drawn up and proposed to the Judiciary Committee.
Multiple surveys of U.S. public opinion found that the clear majority of Americans rejected the idea of impeaching Obama, while a majority of Republicans were in favor; for example, CNN found in July 2014 that 57% of Republicans supported these efforts while about two thirds of adult Americans in general disagreed with them.[4] (Wikipedia) Efforts to impeach Barack Obama
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.
Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 12,005 Likes: 133
Pooh-Bah
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OP
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 12,005 Likes: 133 |
Was there really a quid pro quo? Does it matter?
As usual, the defense for a person caught doing bad things is to create chaos and confusion, which provides lots of opportunity for deflection, distraction, denial, and obfuscation. And of course, gaslighting and bald-faced lying. Trump is a master at it, as are many of the Republican leaders. About the only forces available to moderate such behavior are integrity and ethics, which were jettisoned by these people long ago.
But back to the quid pro quo. The con men are trying a variety of sleight of hand tricks; it’s not illegal, it’s a common practice in diplomacy, it never happened, the Ukrainians didn’t know that the military aid was on hold, and my favorite - Trump is too incompetent to set it up. Something for something, that is quid pro quo. It’s an exchange, a deal... when it’s shady and unethical it’s called a bribe.
But when it is the threat of taking of something of value away from another, unless they do what you want, it’s called extortion. Extortion is an interesting act in that it’s simply the threat - it doesn’t have to be consummated. It also contains an element of force and implied harm. It’s not an exchange of something for something, there is no deal. It’s “do what I want, or else I will make you suffer.”
Extortion. Not quid pro quo. It is common - in organized crime.
You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 3,022 Likes: 63
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 3,022 Likes: 63 |
I was using the numbers to show how and why most Republicans think impeachment is a very partisan political vendetta. Perhaps in general, but not in this case. The evidence and the witnesses validate that there was a quid pro quo aka extortion carried-out by the POTUS, Donald J Trump. We'll see. Trump, Guiliani, and Mulvaney all admitting on TV that there was a quid pro quo hasn't convinced you? Not even Bill Taylor's testimony and transcript? Actually I'm not in either the pro or anti Trump camps. I'm still very angry at both major parties for giving us the choices they did in 2016 which led directly to Trump's election. I don't personally care if Trump stays or goes. This stuff began the day after the election. Plain fact is I don't trust neither the Democrats nor Trump. This is a two major party battle. I just thought folks here would be interested in the Gallup article and poll. Most non-affiliated are divided into three groups, 35% favor impeachment, 35% against impeachment, 30% undecided, not sure or plain don't care. For me 2016, I didn't care who won between Trump and Clinton. I wanted neither one. 25% of all Americans wanted neither one to become president. That included 54% of all independents, the non-affiliated. Impeachment, if Trump is impeached, fine, if not, fine, 2020 is right around the corner.
It's high past time that we start electing Americans to congress and the presidency who put America first instead of their political party. For way too long we have been electing Republicans and Democrats who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Republicans and Democrats.
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 47,433 Likes: 373
Member CHB-OG
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Member CHB-OG
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 47,433 Likes: 373 |
I'm still very angry at both major parties for giving us the choices they did in 2016 which led directly to Trump's election. Well, get over it.  I don't personally care if Trump stays or goes. You don't care that Trump broke laws (Campaign finance, extortion)? Interesting.
Contrarian, extraordinaire
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