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I never said anything was stolen from Bernie. I didn't especially like Bernie in 2016 and the only thing good about him this time around was that he was a progressive. But he lost fair and square both times.

Doesn't mean I'm automatically going to vote for Biden.

But the virus and the recession have changed the dynamics of the race entirely. I don't think you're going to see many lefties missing a chance to vote against Trump.

Yall better hope so anyway. As much as you hate us you still need for us to vote for your candidate.

I've said all along, we have who we have as president as a direct result of the actions, decisions, choices of both major parties back in 2016. They chose who they chose. 100% their right to choose whichever candidate they want.

As a numbers guy who studies numbers, I knew the choice of Clinton wasn't very smart. But it was their choice, not mine. Could Sanders have done better, I think he could have in 2016. Only three candidates in 2016 were viewed more positive than negative. They were Sanders, Kasich and Rubio. Why is that important? Folks usually don't vote for someone they dislike.

Numbers can tell quite a good story, provide more truth than what one thinks. Numbers said Hillary would have a hard time winning, but that she should prevail. But Hillary made too many mistakes and in my opinion didn't take the election serious enough.

What 2016 proved is that candidates do matter to some folks. Not necessarily to those who are loyal to a political party, not as much anyway as history shows they'll vote for their party's candidate on average 90% of the time regardless of who it is. So which group matters the most, who care more about the candidates than a political party. Perhaps it's independents.

The two major parties always think, thought independents have to vote for one of theirs. Usually that is true even if their vote was for the lesser of two evils, the least disliked candidate. 2016 was unique, odd in that 6% of all Americans finally said enough is enough. 12% of independents, 9 million voters.

6% in 2016 voted against both major party candidates and I say good for them. In 2012 it was 1.5%, 1.2% in 2008 and 1.0% in 2004. If I don't like a candidate, I'm not voting for him even if he is the lesser of two evils among the major parties candidates. I want to let both parties know I don't like their candidates. This I did in 2016. If a party wants my vote, they have to earn it. Provide a candidate/s I trust and like. If not, I'll vote for someone else. I suppose most of those 9 million felt the same as I. Although I don't have the numbers to prove it. That is outside of CNN's exit polls for 2016

Asked of third party voters who they would have voted for if there had been no third party candidate on the ballot, just Trump and Clinton, you had to choose one or the other. 19% answered Trump, 16% answered Clinton, 65% said they would have voted. So in 2016, those who voted third party actually helped Hillary. So Trump would have received more votes if people choose the lesser of two evils, the least worst candidate, the candidate they wanted to lose the least.

https://www.cnn.com/election/2016/results/exit-polls

It seems third party voters deemed Trump the lesser of two evils, the least worst candidate or the candidate they wanted to lose the least. At least that is what the numbers say.

I've been told by republicans my third party vote was actually a vote for Clinton. Democrats have told me my third party vote was a vote for Trump. Their partisan view of a third party voter I suppose. In reality, it was a vote against both. We're allowed to do that, nothing illegal about and nothing unpatriotic about it either.

Biden is not "my" candidate. I didn't even vote for him in the primaries, I actually voted for Sanders. And I don't hate you, but what can I say, if you don't see how much worse Trump is than Biden, and how much a second Trump term will hurt America (including, putting to sleep all progressive dreams, which Biden won't do), and if you still don't try to stop him by voting for Biden, yes, you'll be one of the people I'll blame when all the damage is inflicted upon us all.

And sure, moderates can't win without the progressives... but something the progressives seem to fail to realize is that they are at best 33% of the Democratic Party, more like 20% or 25%, so with much better reason, they can't win without the moderates either, and the way they might be able to win would be by earning the hearts and minds of the moderates, gently showing to them for example how universal healthcare might help them and their families... not by ridiculing them, calling them names, saying that they are stupid, ignorant, and brainswashed sheep. I'm not saying that you are the one saying so... but if you say "you all" then allow me to generalize, too.

AOC said the priority shouldn't be beating Trump. Dumb woman. Yes, absolutely, the priority now should be beating Trump. We can worry about other things later. Whoever doesn't see it doesn't earn a lot of my respect.

Well, then, this just shows that they are even stupider than I thought.


It is certainly not illegal. Democracy does mean that sometimes we have to put up with people's poor choices. But yes, given the HUGE damage that Trump has done to America and will continue to do if he is not stopped in November, yes, it's kind of unpatriotic.

In most elections, or even, all elections so far in my lifetime, I wouldn't say so. Was Ralph Nader a spoiler who enabled George W. Bush? Sure. But even dumb and incompetent George W. Bush, even with his boneheaded Iraq war, wasn't as dangerous and as damaging as Trump, so I'm relatively fine with the people who voted for Nader. Oh well, who would have anticipated that I'd miss dumb George W. Bush? That's how bad Trump is.

Look, I'm sorry if I offend you, and I do like you as a poster, but in the interest of a frank (while still civil) debate, I'd say that if you love our country as I'm sure you do, you do have a patriotic obligation to protect it from the kind of damage that Trump is inflicting on it.

Most elections? Sure, I can respect the third party folks.

An election featuring Donald J. Trump? Absolutely not. A truly patriotic (and thinking) American shouldn't fail to see the kind of existential threat he represents.

Again, I pity rather than blame the uninformed, naive voters who truly think that Trump is good for America.

But an obviously intelligent, well-informed poster like you, perfectly able to engage in logical thinking, perfectly articulate political junkie (aren't we all, if we are members of forums like this one?), I do expect more from you.

Please, don't repeat the 2016 mistake. Vote for Biden, not because he is Biden, but rather because he is not Trump.

I'd vote for the flea on the back of my worst enemy's dog if that flea were running against Trump.

I really have to wonder when one equates patriotism to how one votes if there is something wrong with that. People vote the way they do for reasons that are important to them. You may or I may think those reasons asinine, but nonetheless, they are very important to the one voting for whoever. One of the reasons I think is most asinine is voting based only on the letter behind a candidates name. Odds are you're voting for the best candidate half the time and for the worst candidate the other half.

I don't think patriotism has a thing to do with political parties. In this era of polarization and ultra high partisanship, Republicans feel Democrats are unpatriotic and Democrats feel Republicans are unpatriotic. That each believes with all their heart that the other party is out to destroy America. I don't believe any of that. I believe each party has their own agenda, that each party believes what they want to do is best for America. I don't believe either party is this nation's number one enemy as so many that belong to both parties do.

Today's military is an all volunteer force. People volunteer to serve this country, to put their lives on the line in defense of it. Are they unpatriotic for having voted for Trump? In 2016 veterans voted for Trump 60-34 over Hillary. Those who never served voted for Hillary 50-44.

https://www.cnn.com/election/2016/results/exit-polls

It's those folks who protect your right to vote for whoever you choose and yes, for you to call them unpatriotic for not having voted for Hillary. Now you can call them stupid, dumb, ignorant voters, that I haven't a problem with. But I think unpatriotic is a bit unfair and going a bit too far considering they're willing to risk their lives and die for this country. Now I may be all wet, but that's how I feel. Now I'm not saying that those who served or are in the military are more patriotic than those who aren't or didn't serve. The military can't be successful without the support of the civilians back home. It's just I can't equate being unpatriotic with how one's votes. Now that's me, apparently not you.

As for Nadar, who knows. would they have voted at all if Nadar hadn't been on the ballot? In 2016, in CNN's exit polls 65% of those who voted third party said they wouldn't have voted if there were no third party candidate to vote for. Also a lot of Sanders supporters stayed home and never bothered to vote. You have 25% of Sanders supporters say they won't support Biden this year. I suppose most of those 25% will stay home. But some may vote third party and some actually vote for Trump. My point is one can't assume just because they voted for Nadar, without Nadar on the ballot they would go to the polls and vote for Gore. Perhaps most of Nadar voters didn't like neither major party candidate.

As for this year. I always liked Biden going back to when he was a senator. I voted for him in the Georgia primary this year and will again in November. Georgia mailed ballots out for the primary. Had it been Biden vs. Trump in 2016, I'd have voted for Joe, not third party. Had it been almost any other Democrat other than Hillary vs. Trump, I'd have voted for them. Hillary supporters and most Democrats don't understand how much she was disliked and distrusted by America as a whole. Only 29% of all of America trusted Hillary, 59% did not with the rest not sure. Trump was trusted by 34% with 55% not trusting him, the rest not sure.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/l37rosbwjp/econTabReport_lv.pdf

What I find amazing out of the whole 2016 mess, is that only 61% of Democrats said Hillary was trustworthy, 65% of Republicans said Trump was. that shows you there were a lot people in both major parties that didn't trust their own candidate, but voted for them anyway. 89% of Democrats voted for Hillary, 88% of republicans for Trump.

GreatNews is not so much talking about people being stupid for voting for Trump in 2016, as for voting for Trump in 2020. Even Republicans have an agenda that doesn't involving destroying America, or at least not immediately. They don't really trust Putin, and hate all our old allies.

But Trump, on the other hand, has done so many corrupt and insane things. If you can't see that, you just are not competent enough to be trusted with a pen, much less a ballot. Crayons for you.

Sometimes you just have to hold your nose and vote for the guy you don't agree with, versus the guy who wants to fiddle while Rome burns.

You've misinterpreted what I was saying. I didn't make of this a Dem v. Repub issue. I said I'm an independent and I lean Democrat most of the time but I've voted for my share of Republicans, and if John Kasich had won the Republican primaries in 2016 I'd have voted for him over Hillary.

I have the highest respect for the military, and as a moderate, I am for military spending and expansion (the world out there is tough), upgrading our military, and providing our fine soldiers with the best possible equipment. I'm deeply grateful to them for what they do for us.

I said I don't blame the people who never noticed how bad Trump was and thought that he'd be good for America. I'd bet that most of that military majority that voted for him falls into that. I said I pity them but I don't blame them.

I said I blame the people who knew that Trump was no good but still didn't find in them the vision and the courage to stop him from grabbing power.

I said Nader was a spoiler but didn't say I blame him or the people who voted for him. I said that in most elections I don't blame the people who went third party - except when it involves Trump.

While I thought that George W. was dumb, incompetent, and ceded too much power to crazy and evil Dick Cheney, I admire his father and I though that he was a very decent president.

If Colin Powell had ever accepted to run for president as a Republican, I'd have voted for him over just about any other candidate in both parties.

So, my issue is not against the Republican Party (or at least it wasn't until they became the cowardly Trump rubber stamp). My issue is against Trump.

Do you think that Trump is a true Republican? Trump is an evil opportunist who reaches for anything that will boost his ego and make him richer, everything else be damned, included America. He couldn't care less for the Republican party. For him, they are a convenient tool to use to his advantage; nothing more.

Failing to see it is ignorant and utterly misguided but it is worthy of pity.

Seeing it and not caring, and indirectly enabling him by voting third party or abstaining, yes, is unpatriotic.

Whoever calls him or herself patriotic and knowingly doesn't care about the fact that this evil man is destroying America, can't call him or herself patriotic.

I said, I wouldn't say the same in other elections. But I do say it in an election featuring Trump. If it offends you, I'm sorry. It is not my intention to personally offend you. However, I'm not here to disguise my own opinion. I'm frankly stating it, even if it is hurtful for some people. What would be the point of registering with an anonymous political discussion forum, if one had to disguise and falsify one's opinion?

So, sorry, maybe my opinion is not politically correct, but it is what it is: that people who actually understand how evil and how dangerous Trump is, but couldn't care less, and go to some other candidate to teach someone else a lesson, or don't even show up to vote, yes, I consider them to be unpatriotic, period.

If people feel hurt about this opinion, then they should wake up and understand what they are doing: enabling the American who has hurt the country the most. If this is not unpatriotic, it's hard to think of too many things that would better qualify for the term.

We've been attacked in Pearl Harbor. We've been attacked in New York City. We've been attacked in many other occasions. All of those were perpetrated by foreign enemies. No American has ever damaged the country as badly as Donald J. Trump, and yes, knowingly enabling him is unpatriotic.

Don't try to generalize what I'm saying, because it only applies to elections featuring Donald J. Trump.

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In response to pondering_it_all, unfortunately I do blame the people who knowingly and willingly enabled Trump in 2016, such as the Bernie or Bust idiots who defected.

It is true that I blame much more the people who are about to make the same mistake in 2020, because we've had 3 and a half years of what a Trump presidency is, so it's even less excusable, now. Regarding the military, it's mind-boggling that Cadet Bone Spurs who keeps berating Gold Star families still gets any support from military people.

You think Trump is bad? Wait for what he'll do once he is a second-term lame duck with nothing to lose.

I think there are four kinds of Trump voters:

1. The naive and ignorant ones who truly believe that he is good for America and will help them (often, white lower middle class blue collar workers) - I pity those; they are shooting themselves in the foot and don't know better.

2. Wealthy people who vote for Trump with their own interest at heart, knowing that he will keep cutting taxes for them. I despise them. I am quite well-off myself and there is no doubt I'll pay more taxes under any Democrat as president as compared to Trump, but that's not a reason for me to vote for Trump.

3. Racists, xenophobes, sexists, white supremacists - these are the scum of the earth. I despise them even more.

4. People who know who Trump is but still don't care and prefer to go teach some lesson to the Democratic party that didn't pick their cult leader or just want to spite the liberals, and couldn't care less about protecting America from this evil and corrupt wannabe dictator. These, I blame and I'm angry at them. There is absolutely no excuse for what they did and/or plan to do in November. And yes, these are unpatriotic.

I'm happy that you don't fall into any of these, as you say you'll vote for Biden in November.

Well said!

I've been military all my life. 21 years active duty, 26 working as a Department of the Army civilian. When Trump first announced, then said something akin that John McCain was a bad solider because he got caught. I was completely against him. Then Trump added insult to injury by dissing a gold star family who lost their son in Afghanistan, there was no way I ever vote for him. Hillary's disrespectful treatment of the military in the White House during her husband's tenure as president turned me against her. Another one I'd never vote for.

I think from attending my VFW and American Legion meetings back in late 2015 and early 2016 that a decent Democratic candidate had a chance of winning the military, veteran's vote for the first time since LBJ. Before and after those meetings it seemed all we talked about was Trump and his disrespecting POW's and families that had lost loved one's in defense of this country. That is until they nominated Hillary. Then like so many other Americans, it was a case of disliking Hillary more than disliking Trump.

Regardless, I never equated how one votes with patriotism. How or who one votes for I do equate to partisanship, to party affiliation. To personal likes and dislikes or the candidates, for candidates who meet your ideals and against those who don't along with many other reasons. But never patriotism. I can't stand Republicans accusing Democrats and Democrats accusing Republicans of hating America because of a difference in politics or party affiliation.

If you think those who vote for Trump are unpatriotic, that's your opinion. It's isn't mind. So we'll just have to agree to disagree there. As for Trump himself, I view him as a thin skinned, feud creating, egotistical, obnoxious, schoolyard bullying opportunist. Perhaps Trump always planned to run for the presidency, you ever look at his political party history? For all of his early life and during the Reagan presidency, Trump was a Democrat. During Bill Clinton he was a Republican. He actually ran for the Reform Party nomination in 2000 becoming a member of that tiny party. During G.W. Bush he was a Democrat again, reverted to being a Republican in 2009, then an independent in 2011 and finally for the third time a Republican in 2012. In short, Trump has been a Republican three times, a Democrat twice, independent twice and a member of the Reform Party once. I find that interesting.

Absolutely. The consequences of a second Trump term are almost too horrible to consider. But there is still some chance he might win...

I don't think it can happen. We've passed the "let them eat cake" stages of this thing and are on our way to the Guillotine part of the the game. The torches and pitchforks are leaning by the peasant's doors and waiting for November.

I'm a Marxist. Just because the candidate calling for revolution was not nominated does not mean the revolution has ended. It has barely begun.

This plague will be the downfall of the king.