Capitol Hill Blue Forums Political Issues Politics In General There needs to be a ‘real reckoning’ for Trump’s abuses if Biden wins

I can demonstrate why and how Republicans have been weakening America with an apparent goal of her destruction for decades.

I can't see that same intent on the part of Democrats except when they emulate Republicans.

I'm not a partisan or even a Democrat. I'm what you might call an anti-fascist.

Tom Joad-The Grapes of Wrath

Strange times indeed. Outside of a few prominent Republicans who are anti-Trump, the rank and file continue to support him. According to the latest YouGov poll which breaks it down via party and many other categories, 88% of all Republicans plan on voting for Trump. The same percentage as in 2016. 4% for Biden, Hillary Clinton received 8% of the Republican vote in 2016. Question 59

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/hpupr0zhkl/econTabReport.pdf

4% of Republicans voted third party in 2016, only 1% plan on doing so today. So the way I read those numbers, Trump's support among Republicans is as solid today as it was in 2016. I've said this many times, it's not among Republicans that Trump is/has lost support. The party faithful, the rank and file are going to vote for their party's candidate on average 90% of the time regardless of party and regardless of who that candidate is.

It's independents that have fallen off the Trump train. The non-affiliated with either major party. Today, these non-affiliated out number those who are Democrats 40-31 and those who are Republicans 40-25. Another way to put it, independents make up 40% of the electorate today, Democrats 31% and Republicans 25%. Who independents decide to support, vote for will win in November as we know that 90% of each party's base vote will vote for their candidate.

I've given this advice to a few candidates, don't worry about trying to convince any of the other party's base to vote for you. Worry about winning independents. Personally, I think both Trump and Biden have been paying way too much attention to their party's base and basically ignoring independents.

This isn't the era of between 1932-1980 when the Democratic Party made up 45-50% of the electorate with independents accounting for just 20%. This is a new ballgame, a new era. In this new era, only Reagan and Bill Clinton made a conscious effort to capture the independent vote. Everyone else just played to their base leaving independents up for grabs.

Biden's doing a pretty good job playing to the left without going too far left himself. You may recall that I'm not much of a Biden fan but he's low key playing all his cards right.

Trump doesn't care a whit for anybody but his racist base. We're gonna see soon how it plays out.

Yeah, so far so good. Right now I'd say independents are looking for a return to normalcy. I don't think Biden has to worry at all about the Democratic base. Being angry at Trump is enough to get them to turnout. That showed in the midterms of 2018 voting Democratic by a 54-42 margin after voting for Trump in 2016 presidential. Now independents are a finicky bunch. One of Hillary's problems was she basically ignored them concentrating on placating Sanders supporters.

Being as left as you are, you may think Hillary didn't move left by quite a lot. But from someone in the middle ideological wise, she sure did. Biden needs not to follow the road she took.

What I'm watching here is to see if Biden follows the old political adage for winning. Being a Democrat, campaigning left during the primaries and then move toward the center, the middle during the general election campaign. Of course for Republicans it's campaign right during the primaries and then move toward the center during the general.

Doing this may peeve off the progressives a bit, but it would attract independents. Regardless of the democratic base, if Biden can win the independent vote, he wins the election. The important numbers is independents make up 40% of the electorate. The Democrats 31%, what percentage of that 31% are progressives, I don't know. You'd have a better idea than I.

I think as the campaign goes along, Biden needs to reinforce his moderate credentials or how so far, independents perceive him to be. Where are the progressives going to go? They're certainly not going to vote for Trump if Biden moves a bit more toward the middle. Perhaps some may stay home, but how bad do they want Trump gone? I don't many will even if Biden moves a bit more toward the center.

My goal is to get Biden to 270. It's time for an ADULT to occupy the White House. If Biden has to step on a few progressives or hurt their feelings a bit. I say do it. After the 2018 midterms, independents are definitely leaning Democratic, the idea is to keep them leaning that way. Don't lose them.

What I find enlightening is I get the view from you from the far left and the far left's perspectives. You'll get mine, from someone who isn't very ideological at all, from someone basically smack dab in the middle of where are two major parties are today.

I don't understand Republicans and Democrats much, but I do understand most independents, swing voters, in general that is as some are way to the right of the GOP and way to the left of the Democrats. One other thing I don't understand, both parties are losing their moderates and neither party seems to care. Perhaps losing these more moderate folks makes those left more cohesive and a tighter group ideological wise?

Based on my experience, your statement is not true nor valid.

What is true and valid is a large group of Democrats/liberals have concluded some of the stuff Republicans/conservatives say is just plain stupid. Saying something is stupid is not the same as hating someone who believes a different philosophy than you or like the color purple rather than yellow. What I see and hear from the many Trump supporters who surround me is pure basic unadulterated hatred.

Maybe there are Democrats who "hate" Republicans because they say stupid things. I can't say. But what I do say is being stupid is Constitutionally protected. I don't hate people because they say stupid things. I would rather believe they say stupid things because they are ignorant. And what I have to say about ignorance is, it is choice.

BTW, this is not to say some Democrats don't say stupid things. It would appear to me the frequency is far lower.

Partisans of either party will never see what their party does wrong. There's a very good reason we're in the era of polarization and ultra high partisanship. Both party leaders promote that the other party is the devil reincarnated, the most evil thing on the face of the earth, that the other party is out to destroy this nation and the other party candidates are the scum of the earth.

The flock of both parties believe in all this rhetoric and it becomes ingrained in them. General speaking that is. Both use a divide and conquer strategy to win votes. Both pit groups of voters against each other, both utilize negative personal attacks to the max. The idea is to get the voter to hate the other guy more than they hate you.

We like to think our elections are about ideas, about policy, about solutions to our problems, about visions of the future. But watching political ads, 95% of them contain nothing about that, just how bad of a scum bag the other fellow is.

There's no way I or anyone else can convince any hard core partisan of either party of this, I don't even try. They think the above is true, it's warranted, full guns a blazing ahead with the negative personal attack ads. It's no wonder that 60% of all Americans viewed both candidates in 2016 very negative and disliked both.

This isn't about to change, negative personal attack ads work. It drives wedges between the parties and the people who think whomever wins is just another scum bag politician. No debate about ideas, visions, etc, just negative ads. We reap what we sow. But neither party will ever admit they do it and if they do, they will always retort that it was the truth.

And single issue voters will forgive anything either party does as long as it supports their single issue.

Please post a list of items which support your contention regarding Democrats. You may frequent right wing sites which provide fodder for right wing appetites for hatred, so I would have missed all the short comings of Democrats (or it could be simply partisan misrepresentations and mischaracterizations, which could also apply to left wing sites, despite the fact I am far more critical of left wing sites, as I try to hold them to a higher standard, while for the most part from what I have read, right wing sites have no standard).

For The Party of Trump .... just list all tweets.

The one thing which I would suggest may be different is a factual basis.

Left wing websites are famously non partisan and most specifically rail against the Democratic Party. Right wing websites are very specifically pro Trump and rail against the Democratic Party.

I too think Pero's thinking on this is a bit out of whack.

He labels regular voters who vote in every election as "partisans" because they usually vote for the party they sided with when they registered to vote. Folks who only vote when they get pissed off are "independents".

The numbers work in his analysis but it is not for the reasons he imagines. It's all about turnout. Whichever party pisses off the most of them will lose the election.

Republicans are masters at making people mad at democrats while picking their pockets.

It dawns on me that we seem to be forgetting a kindofa important thing. The political conservatives have ALWAYS wanted government to go away. I think that everybody can agree on that? This being the case blaming Trump for everybody may be an overreach as we also know that he will, basically, do anything asked of him by the far conservative right and has proven that time and time again. This, in my own mind, doesn't give him a damned thing and I continue to want him gone.

My point, I guess, is that there is a lot more than just Trump that needs to be dealt with in one way or another?