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Discuss...?

Perhaps it is by design. Republicans and Democrats write our election laws and do so as a mutual protection act. If there's one thing both major agree on, it's no viable third party will ever rise. Then too, both major parties owe their heart and souls to corporations, wall street firms, lobbyist, special interest, mega individual money donors. This is where they get their tens and hundreds of millions of dollars to run their campaigns and organizations.

Of course you've heard this from me before. The rhetoric coming from both parties are different, but both serve the same masters. Can you believe the two major parties combined to spend 14 billion dollars on the 2020 election, 43% of that came from individual mega money donors. In third place was the Libertarian Party with a bit less than 3 million to spend, no mega money donors, no money from corporations, wall street, lobbyist, special interests etc.

Even when some elected officials talk bad about the moneyed elite, it's done with a wink and a nudge. Raise the tax rate on them, you can be sure of loopholes and special deductions are included for those weathy donors. Let's face it, no one is going to bite the hand that feeds it.

There are times, perhaps now most of the time I think the voters are nothing more than pawns in this game of political charades or chess. We think we make a difference, but do we really? What has changed from Trump to Biden or Obama to Trump or Bush to Obama? Just things around the edges. Outside of some of those changes, it's business as usual. Sure, you have the ACA and now the infrastructure bill, but that's just crumbs around the edges, meanwhile the moneyed elites still have their way and pull the strings.

Perhaps I'm cynical, maybe a the biggest cynic in the world. We're, the voters are just a necessary evil in the grand scheme of things. Can't buy the voters, buy the politicians. I'm tied of see rich folks make it to congress and the senate only to become very, very rich before leaving. Grand design, probably so.

We did pass one Infastructure Bill last night.


Talk to DINOs Manchin and Sinema about the other Infrastructure Bill. Machin who lives on a $5M yacht and drives a Maserati to work doesn't think it's cool that you have paid family leave - and his rich oil and coal buddies certainly don't want to pay for it.

A watered-down bill that does more for the petroleum industry than anyone else.

Much was promised, little delivered.

Typically Democratic in its lack of scope and foresight.

Will it end Biden's tumble in the polls? Is this where Dems turn it all around and surge to a Blue Wave in 2022? Biden is an inept old fool. THAT is the problem, not Manchin or Sinema's efforts to keep spending under some sort of control.

This is the bill that should have passed months ago with little fanfare. This should have led to other targeted popular legislation, which should have attracted bipartisan support, which would have lessened division and brought the country together, and made future legislation possible.

American voters don't want any major changes to happen too fast. This is the reality of the situation.

Manchin and Sinema read the voters better than Biden did. That's a fact. But Dems are driven by their "extremists" just like the Republicans are. They can't see it because they are also driven by the mainstream media narrative that says Manchin and Sinema are the enemies!
Even when the RNC used his boat against him in a political add they only claimed it was a $700,000 dollar yacht. He lives on a 65-foot houseboat that he paid $220,000 for in 2014 while he's in Washington. It might not even be seaworthy. Essentially a cheap apartment. A floating trailer, just as you'd expect from a West Virginian.

Biden won the nomination because he was a safe bet to beat Trump. That was the number one priority if not the only priority last November for Democrats. Not new legislation or major changes, Biden never offered those. Fact is Biden stayed hidden in his basement for most of the campaign letting Trump hog the spotlight, letting Trump be Trump, letting Trump remind the voters why they disliked him so much, especially independents. 2020 was all about getting rid of Trump. Not an endorsement of the Democratic Party or their policies or ideology. As I stated before, Biden won the anti-vote, those who voted against a candidate, not for any candidate, just against 68-30 over Trump. 2020 was a vote for a candidate that acted and behaved like an adult, that was all that was needed. 7 million people voted against Trump, for Biden then voted Republican down ballot if CNN exit polls are correct.

Manchin and Sinema’s politics are probably more in tune with more Americans than the progressive wing of the Democratic party. Most of independents who voted for Biden, besides wanting Trump gone, just wanted a return to normalcy and to a saner time. Not new massive legislation. They felt comfortable with Biden, at least for his first six months. Independents were giving Biden somewhere between 53-55% approval rating, basically for not being Trump and not doing a darn thing. Then the legislation push among many other things and independents approval of Biden and company dropped down to 47% in August, down to 43% September, 37% October and now at 34% today.

I think, at least among independents, the Biden they voted for was the moderate Democrat that Joe was as senator and as VP. Not the new progressive Biden. All they wanted was a president who acted and behaved presidential.

Regardless, I think the Democrats problem is they misread the total election of 2020. Sure, they won the presidency, but that was more because of the anti-Trump sentiment than any pro-Democratic Party sentiment. Remember the lost of 13 house seats, 2 state legislatures and a governor ship all the while winning the presidency. Perhaps they ought to look at the ticket splitters who voted Biden then Republican down ballot. That’s not an endorsement for massive change. It’s an endorsement for the status quo minus Trump.

I think the Democrats ought to move slowly forward and not take people out of their comfort zone. Bill Clinton and the democrats did this in 1994 and lost 54 house seats. Obama and the democrats took folks out of their comfort zone in 2010 and lost 63 seats. Biden was viewed as a safe candidate that wouldn’t take people out of their comfort zone, although it seems the progressive wing is trying to make Biden do so. I think if they keep it up, another red wave may indeed happen. Look at Virginia and the very close call in New Jersey where Democrats have than a million voters than the Republicans.

Exactly.

I have to disagree, my friend. The Democrats tried to make it better, the Republicans (and Sinema) watered it down and added gifts to corporate sponsors...

Again, I completely disagree. I know that it is a "media narrative", but that is because there is substance to it. Manchin and Sinema want to have outsized influence - it's ego - and they know they have leverage. Biden has the thinnest of margins. It is probably too late to make a dent in 2022's conditions through legislation, but if the perception becomes the economy is turning around, the Democrats should improve their odds - but they are not good. Virginia's governor's race is probably a good indication of where they are now - because the same dynamic will play out in 2022. Dems did not get out their base, and Republicans did. If they don't in the mid-terms, the same scenario will play out up and down the ballot.

Here, I do agree. The problem was, it wasn't going to pass because of progressive interference. They cut off their noses to spite their faces. It was "tactical", not strategic. The fact that so many Republicans joined to get it passed was actually, in my view, a good sign.

Americans are fools. There is an urgency to reality that they just haven't grasped.

Back to disagreement. Manchin and Sinema are pissing off their own voters. They are counting on the fact that they don't have to campaign in 2022. They are hoping that conditions will change on their own before 2024. In that, I think they are terribly wrong. If Democrats are seen as inept as Republicans in passing legislation - which they certainly do now - then people don't have a good reason to vote for them. If they can demonstrate they can get things done, even if not everyone agrees on every particular measure, they will do well. They should have strong-armed progressives, gotten the first bill passed, and used the good will that followed to push for more of their agenda. They squandered that opportunity.

More disagreement. Dems have two factions that are entrenched. Manchin and Sinema have outsized influence right now, but if the Democrats picked up seats, that influence would fade. As I said, progressives are being tactical when strategy is called for. They're not extremists - actually, pretty mainstream if polls are accurate - but they are not particularly savvy.

So far, so good.

Now, here, we disagree. People wanted change - badly. They just weren't coherent on what changes they want. Republicans are unpopular, nationally, and their policies suck big time. But, US elections aren't national, and there is a built-in bias against getting things done. I think we all agree that people want cooperation and for government to work. But, one of the parties doesn't want that, period. And that party controls half of the seats in Congress, even though only 40% or less of the population. Until that dynamic changes, voters are going to remain frustrated.

Completely disagree, and the facts support me on this. Although Biden's plans were overshadowed by the "plan for that" and Bernie, etc., he had a solid, specific platform, and he has stuck to that in his White House. People just weren't paying attention. His agenda had much more substance than you or voters generally give him credit for.
I could quibble, but I won't. I think, in the main, that is a correct assessment - with one caveat: I think people want the country to move forward, they're just a little unclear on what that direction is. I think a program, as Biden offers, is what they want. Biden's stumbles are basically two - the Afghanistan withdrawal (and misreading the facts on the ground), and failing to get legislation passed. As I noted earlier, if he got his agenda moving (which it is, now, in fits and starts), he'd be riding high in the polls. The problem is, he seems feckless because legislation is stalled.

Personally, I think they should have passed a watered-down agenda, then sought add-ons as conditions improved. They're 6 months behind the 8-ball because of infighting. Progressives saw this as their opportunity to exert influence, but they overplayed their hand.

I disagree.
Again, I disagree. There was plenty of support for climate legislation, infrastructure, and COVID relief measures, including among independents. Again, that wasn't because the legislation was disapproved of, it's because it didn't go anywhere. That's in the polls, too.

I think you are totally misreading Virginia and New Jersey. Every off-year since Reagan the voters of those States have voted counter-party of the President, in both directions. It happened to Reagan, Bush, Obama and Trump. In fact, Murphy defied the odds by being re-elected. Those elections had very little to do with national sentiment. They had to do with the standard swingy voters and lack of turnout. Democrats lost because MacAuliffe was not a good candidate, the odds were against them, and Democratic apathy.

The time for moving slowly forward has passed. We've been in "deferred maintenance" in this country for half a century and it is showing, big time. Times are getting desperate. Climate change, disease, and failing infrastructure - physical and social - are real, and they are getting worse. People need to be reminded of that.

One of the very few things we agree on besides the stupidity of American voters.


And so, through your assessment, Democrats are poised to do well next November! Pero and I are completely misreading every single issue and so far nothing stands in the way of democrats keeping the House and Senate in 2022 and Biden's re-election in 2024.

Real Democrats will save the day and those egotists Manchin and Sinema are seeking nothing but glory and press. Neither will be reelected because they have disappointed(some) of their voters.
Same goes for the Progressives whose fault all this is for adding so much pork to the bill.

We'll just eliminate all the progressive Democrats, and all the moderate Democrats so "we" as a party can march in lockstep and defeat the evil Republicans forever!