Capitol Hill Blue Forums Political Issues Foreign Policy & News The long and winding road to Dumbass

No Jeff, the us didn’t cause the starvation in the Ukraine back in the depression. And?

Not a victim. Just letting you know it’s starting to feel like your taking my views personally. If your not my mistake.

Maybe not running around calling me unhinged might help.
Maybe not continually making everything about ME might help.

RE: Holodomor
It wasn't the Depression, it was Soviet pogroms.

If we're going to dig back into history twenty, thirty or even forty years, let's just go all the way back sixty or seventy years.
At the sixty year mark we get to revisit what it was like for Germany when the Soviet Union was not only ON their doorstep,
they even had their largest major city split right down the middle and only accessible by a heavily guarded access highway INTO East Germany.
But ohhhh, I guess that doesn't count, only the imaginary spectre of Russians massing on the Mexican border...that counts.

Like I said already, I have simple needs...I just don't want to live in a fascist world where Putin calls the shots, and I don't want my kids to either.
That is personal. Having two parents who are immigrants who fled state fascism is personal. One of them being a German Jewish refugee is personal.

NATO was formed, AND MAINTAINED for some very good reasons.
I may not always agree with ALL NATO expansionist ideas but if a former Warsaw Pact nation overthrew its Soviet backed leader, the way Jaruzelski
was overthrown by the Polish, Kremlin complaints about mean old USA are moot. The Polish people spoke, they endured eighteen months of brutal
punishment and refused to be moved.
Like the Kremlin was going to suddenly change their minds with some tanks?

But hey, go back to making this about "America good, Putin bad!".

Wait… what does your German Jewish parents, the iron curtain, NATO expansion into Poland or your fears of having a kid grow up in a fascist state have to do with Starvation in the Ukraine in the 1930’s?

And how does that starvation of the 30’s impact the current crises?

POGROMS, starvation due to POGROMS...these so called "Russian brothers" were subjected to purely political POGROMS.
They didn't starve because of The Great Depression, they starved due to rejection of outside aid, confiscation of all household foodstuffs and restriction of population movement.

It impacts your endeavor to paint the USA as the cause of Russian invasion of Ukraine, which you and the expats you admire seem to agree on.
You listed a half dozen FP moves we made that you think are the reason peace-loving fascist Putin pulled the trigger on stomping Ukraine.
That's what it impacts, I want to know how far you think our blame goes, that impact right there.

Ukrainians don't want to be a client state of Putin's Russia, simple as that.
The Russian speaking Ukrainians in those two breakaway districts might want to be but the majority do not.
And if you ask them their opinion of Putin's assertion that Ukraine was always part of Russia, they take a dim view of that, too.
And by the way it may interest you that despising Putin's assertion that Ukraine is Russia, the hatred of that viewpoint is actually
something shared by a wide range of Ukrainians INCLUDING (YES!) those Azov boiz...it's pretty much across the board, or spectrum.

And when I hear Putin giving the reason for his war as "we're denazifying Ukraine" I actually hear "mumble mumble The Struggle against Kurkul Influence in Collective Farms".
Here's a fun fact:
Areas depopulated by the Holodomor famine were resettled by Russians in the Zaporizhzhya, Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts, but not as much so in central Ukraine.
Things that make you go Hmmmmmm.

One could almost say that the very ROOT events that BEGAN all the division of Ukrainian and "Russianized" Ukrainians stretch ALL the WAY BACK TO Holodomor.


But that might be inconvenient for your YouTube buddies to admit to.

Look, if you can't remember what smartass remark of yours I am replying to, maybe don't make so many smartass remarks and that way you won't have to keep track of them when I am forced to respond to them.
If you're going to whine about it sounding personal, I am obligated to explain what actually IS personal.
Putin's fascism feels personal to me.
Listening to someone whitewash his bloody reputation by saying he's an acomplished statesman is personal.

It had nothing to do with the Holodomor, it has to do with my family's experiences with fascism.
I hate fascists. It is personal, but one of your devices when someone isn't impressed with your barrage of hour long YouTube lectures is to
deflect into a game.
Is it that difficult to follow a train of thought about parents and fascism?
Yeah, I don't think so.

‘Your you tube buddies’

Ok. Whatever.

It’s a good point I have no problem with you bringing up. I’m sure it adds to the tensions. Though theirs debate about it being a genocide or botched industrialization transition. Others have pointed out that EVERY society making the shift to industrial capitalism winds up killing a an eff ton of people during the transition. I’m not taking a side in the debate but pointing out its there. Regardless, I have no problem seeing an Eastern European country full of grudges from the Soviet era as well as before. Yugoslavia comes to mind. Cripes, they were stirred up by their rulers with grievances going back centuries, as I recall. I’ve watched election grievances of certain classes get warped and distort their perceptions and realities.

But basically, if you don’t like my criticism of US foreign policy over the last several decades, so what? Arguments still stands. Expanding the NATO military alliance right up to Russia’s border makes no geopolitical sense. Has the potential to start something even worse than the Ukraine famine if we’re not careful. I don’t see us having been careful. Ditto with the current tense.

Russia’s claims of Denazification was not the sole reason for invading but It didn’t hurt. While you hear mumble mumble it is a fact that right wing paramilitaries have been sniping and shelling those breakaways since Maidan. Azov and Right Guard among them. I could easily see neonazis seizing on grievances from the past to dehumanize an entire group.
.

So answer my question..

You would have no problems with Putin military and naval bases and hundreds of troops on the Canadian or Mexican borders?

I’m sorry Jeff. I didn’t know realize this is about your feelings. How could anyone else have an opinion or view without having your life’s experience. Especially as it concerns everyone on the planet where nukes are concerned.

Nah really, eff your feelings. We all got skin in the game here and your drama doesn’t really do much one way or the other for the outcome. You don’t like an argument I’m making? Fine. Make a better one. Stop hiding behind your parents history to snipe at me. You got a problem with me saying Putin’s an accomplished politician? Boo hoo. Get over it. Up until invading, he was.

Cripes! Making this geopolitical situation about your feelings. Only you Jeff.

Your criticism of US foreign policy is actually the best thing about this thread.
I don't agree with everything you say but you're clearly well informed and you're hitting most of the notes that I remember, when going back decades.
We've done some incredibly repugnant shiite to a lot of folks who didn't have it coming to them.


That actually forces me to do something I should have done several posts back before things got tense.
Yes, I am guilty of contributing at least half of that.
But allow me to try and simplify.

If Putin wins, democracy loses.
If Putin wins AND CONTINUES his goal of a rebranded Imperial Russian Empire, democracy loses again.
If our own "Friends of Putin Party" win in November, democracy loses.
At that point we DO GET
"Putin military and naval bases and hundreds of troops on the Canadian or Mexican borders" ... we get them big time.

Want to watch democracy die? Stay tuned.
Yeah, eff my family, eff my feelings, eff everyone who has family history with fascism and eff THEIR feelings.
Get ready for a lot of "effing" on that score, because if Putin wins, we lose.
We lose democracy.

Is it worth anything to you? To anyone?

That's my entire argument, --->>>> Putin wins, bye bye democracy.

What are your plans in a post-democracy world ruled by a global cabal of fascist elites?

I seriously doubt you or anyone could prove that the only people shelling those breakaways are the neo-Nazis.
And that's because it's simply not the case.
War has always made strange bedfellows. In fact, WW2 it was the entire free world PLUS the Soviets and truth be told, the Russian advance on Berlin ended it a lot sooner.
Trouble is, to the victor go the spoils and they wasted no time in divvying up Berlin and half of Germany.

So, Russia versus Ukraine, Ukraine's majority apparently looks the other way because a bunch of nationalistic neo-Nazis want to fight, and fight hard.
And you're right, in the end that must feel personal to Vladimir Putin, but in a wag the dog response he's making it look and sound like "only those horrible Nazis" are
doing all the shelling and fighting and that's simply not the case unless one is blind and deaf and unable to recognize the fact that Ukrainians elected a jew to lead them.
So yeah, to some extent it IS "mumble mumble" because Putin's the one reducing it to mumble mumble, the same way Trump reduces Democrats to "mumble mumble damn Commies".
Sorry but you're incorrect, Putin IS MAKING it sound as if denazification IS the real reason..."the nazis have corrupted Ukraine so that it is no longer part of Russia, which it always has been."
That's what Russians hear, that's what they're being told.

And when it comes to seizing on grievances from the past to dehumanize an entire group, that's what Holodomor was all about, despite your attempts to minimize it.
The fact that a bunch of neo-Nazis chose to use that history as justification for their attempt to erase the HOLODOMOR-DRIVEN ethnic cleansing of millions of Ukrainians is just an example of how rhetorical flourishes act as unifying battle cries is academic.
Even if most Ukrainians aren't fond of neo-Nazis, in the end they're going to let them fight if they are fighting the Russians.

Here is an example of how that might play out in America:

Suppose fascism DOES win here...and the retooled DoD decides it's time to "neutralize all those communists in California" by sending several large battalions to Los Angeles.
Will Angelenos rise up and try to kill off the Bloods, Crips, 18th Street and White Fence gangs if they signal their willingness to fight the Pentagon Fascists?

I doubt it.
That doesn't mean Los Angeles is run by the Bloods and Crips, does it?
Does it mean that L.A. is all Bloods and Crips?
Trump would IMMEDIATELY declare that he's just wiping out those communist street gangs "that run California" and he'd waste no time labeling Angelenos as such to the rest of the country, to his deplorables.

You down with that, homie?