Capitol Hill Blue Forums Political Issues Campaign 2020 U.S. House Select Committee on the J6 Attack

Your disingenuous simplification is misleading.

I am a pragmatic liberal. What that means is we face problems and situations which are not mentioned or even thought of during the time of the writing of the Constitution, and to limit governance to only the words and not the spirit of the Constitution would be to limit the US to nothing but a group of independent entities with an umbrella designation of the United States.

Conservatives may like to claim they adhere to the original words in the Constitution but you know they are not just disingenuous but in may cases outright lying. A case in point is the current draft for overturning Roe. J Alito talks about not being in the Constitution and therefore etc etc. Based on his argument and lack of restraint vis a vis stare decisis, he would lead the court to overturn every precedent from Marbury on. I mean after all we have to adhere to what is in the Constitution. This is nothing more than political/religious ideology and not Constitutional law.

So conservatives should be calling for return to 1789, to ensure we can not possibly face modern problems. I mean .... I like tearing up all the infrastructure in America .... I like not having a standing army .... I like making individual choices to go to war, or common sense health care prophylactics, or disbanding corporations ... in fact the govment can't tell me to do nothing cuz the Constitution doesn't say they can. Of course the states can do whatever they want, because they are local ... or maybe we should beat the state governments back .... personally I like city states .... frak the other city states .... if they solve a problem, thats their problem ...

I like where this is going .... I already have a mountaintop picked out .... only one road to it and it will be protected by .... well use your imagination

My contention is that he gets to answer the questions for himself.

He has been called a fascist down to the marrow of his bones in this very thread. He is guilty as charged and a bit of Googling turned up a handy list that lets you decide what he thinks and what he wants to do.

Is there a difference between a fascist and a nazi? Is DeSantis a nazi down to the marrow of his bones? Is he just on the cusp of murdering millions of Americans?

Mussolini and Hitler. You think DeSantis is exactly like them and is just itching to start up the gas chambers.

I think you're blowing things all out of proportion.

He's a conservative, he's an authoritarian, he's an assh*le.

The 3 accepted tenets of the Republican party/cult.

And he's probably your next president.

Sorry, I guess I forgot the time thing. The Republicans have been trying to privatize the Post Office for years! The guy who Trump appointed was just part of that effort. I think he figured that the Post Office was some kind of a competitor. I think that the VA, before Trump was sometimes in trouble but Trump, with the advice of the doctors staying at mar-a-lago to help, went after it more seriously. Trump also went after Social Security and Medicare. All in all the current Republican party is after them all. They just want medicare to go away as Socializing medicine is a serious goal for many doctors on the right. The ones I have heard talking about such just think its wrong and messing in their place.

These things not only offend the Republicans but the Libertarians have their own, similar goals as well. I kinda like Libertarians until they just go too far but that is a danger with all the Political Parties. I know that some of the stuff that come from those running under the Democratic banner whilst calling themselves "Socialists" have REALLY not helped the Democrats and i continue to believe that they should run under the Banner of the American Socialist Party. Oh, they have, however, created the "Democratic Socialist Party" which, I guess, means they are really not Socialists at all but something else. It gets a bit hazy.

I'm sorry, my friend, but your points are neither cohesive nor compelling. There is no dehumanization involved at all. Fascism is, in fact, a thing.

The question on the floor is, does he meet the criteria for a fascist? That's it. I think we can agree that the tenets of fascism are incompatible with democratic norms (as are communism), even if we niggle around the edges of definition. Ron DeSantis is behaving not like a normal politician, but like a spoiled child - just as Trump did. He's using his position in an authoritarian manner, abetted by a pliant party. I hope to hell it bites him in the ass, and we can be rid of this egregiously unqualified example of poor leadership.

Why is that? That doesn't make any rhetorical or political sense. We're talking objectivity, here, not self-identification.

We all get to decide. That's what opinions are.

In fact, he is probably responsible for the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands, of Floridians with his idiotic obsession with fighting all sensible precautions over COVID. It hasn't gone away, and is still killing hundreds a day.

Your gross exaggerations are not doing anything for your argument. That is classic straw-manning.

Find a mirror, my friend.

Here you may find universal agreement.

I certainly hope not, and, frankly, I think it highly unlikely.

Mussolini coined the term "fascist" to describe his movement and pretty much owns the word. Just as Hitler is invariably associated naziism.

There's a sort of direct historical connection. You sir, are building the straw man with fear and loathing and what I see as false and unanswered accusations.

You might not like DeSantis, but comparing him to those monsters is a stronger opinion of him than I'm willing to venture. I live here under his brutal regime and have somehow managed to survive, even to prosper! I look around me and people of all colors and creeds are happily interacting together! Democrats and Republicans work side by side, Christians Jews Hindi Buddhist Muslim, Santeria and Vodou...all peacefully and comfortably living their lives in the blighted and dark state of Florida!

Everyone in the state of Florida who wanted a vaccine or as many vaccines as they wanted were happily injected by county employees. Those who didn't want them were not forced to take them. Our governor didn't withhold treatment from anyone.

I think you might need to paint a more realistic picture of DeSantis in your head. He's just a man you disagree with politically, not some sort of monster destined to destroy our democracy. Not some caricature of past ruthless dictators, not some greedy, power-mad real estate mogul.

Small town Florida boy, Yale, Harvard Law, Annapolis. Served his country well and honorably during a time of war and continues to serve as an elected official.

I wish he was a Democrat. But for Republicans, he's going to be a very good president.

I am a conservative socialist.

You predict some sort of political catastrophe that would require you to sequester yourself on a mountaintop, trusting only your ration of hardtack and your trusty squirrel gun to keep you alive during some imagined attack by armed intruders/insurrectionists with aims to prevent you and yours from procuring abortions?

An actual shooting civil war within our lifetimes?

And you have the temerity to call yourself pragmatic?

I predict that things aren't really going to change dramatically. Totally insane, I know.

What is this directed toward?

Here I think I MIGHT modify your statements. Life goes on, even under dictatorships, it is true. The average resident probably has little interaction with the state on a daily basis. But, I think that asserting that DeSantis didn't "withhold treatment from anyone" probably goes too far. Prohibiting rational actions to control the spread of a deadly disease is contrary to public health guidelines and common sense and undoubtedly increased the death toll from the contagion by some factor. Hiding the data from the public also has a similar effect. Did he prevent vaccination? As far as I know, no. Did he inhibit the process? Demonstrably, yes.

Yet. Give him time. It's the tendencies that are disquieting. Authoritarians rarely just "take over". They become inevitable when a series of shaping/forcing actions occur (say, manipulating textbooks, or suppressing information) over a period of time until they have the leverage to entirely undermine the system.

I believe our system is pretty robust, but there are definitely signs of wear and failure that bode ill for the future. We're definitely in a rough patch that could go either way. DeSantis is not a force for good, even if he's not yet a full-grown fascist. He's only playing one for the audience. Part of the question becomes, "who's that audience"?

You think I like the motherf*cker?

Au contraire mon frer! I think he's a political inevitability unless Democrats find someone to counter him.

And I see no one on the horizon.


And therein lies the rub. I think calling someone a name like that, or putting that label on them, borders on an infraction of our former guidelines. Slinging phrases like fascist and nazi about in regards to folks who aren't really much different from yourselves just looks unseemly.

Yes, life goes on even under dictatorships. Commerce, in some form or another must continue. Too many starvations and brutal ethnic cleansings though and eventually the dictator falls. There are only a few teeth left from Hitler's fall and Mussolini's end was even less glorious if you'll recall...

Germany has come along nicely since then and Italy seems to be holding things together as well in the face of some difficult times.


I guess I believe our system is more robust than you do. Democrats are in for a rough patch at the ballot box for a while, civil rights might be in for some hard times too. I still see no reason to panic, Republicans will f*ck up everything they try to do just like they always have and power will return to Democrats.


I intend to. It is you and others crucifying him for crimes yet uncommitted. Projecting future deeds on him. Comparing him to the worst in history.


His audience is the Republican voters he needs to win the presidency in 2024. He knows he won't get any Democratic votes but he's angling towards independents too. He just vetoed a bill favoring Florida Power and has declared a massive tax holiday to help offset the ravages of inflation. If you set aside all the partisan claptrap he's actually a pretty good governor.

I don't view your political opponents as monsters. I don't view Republicans as less than "decent Americans", nor as fascists, or nazis I don't need to call them names to validate my views or positions. Those should stand on their own without the need for dehumanizing everyone who disagrees with them.

If it checks off eleven or more of the boxes in the Fourteen Points of Fascism, it's fascist, sorry.
I'm sure there's a similar "Fourteen Points of Communism" around somewhere and if a candidate or leader clicks off at least eleven or more boxes, then they are indeed communist.

Some species of camels have one hump and some have two, but it's fact that all camels do have humps.

It's not our fault that the Republican Party majority is embracing this, just as it's also not our fault that the majority now openly reject democracy.
They did this to themselves and I think it is a disservice to reasoned debate to pretend that an existing political ideology's name constitutes an illegitimate attack, when these individuals are defining themselves without any help from anyone else.