Capitol Hill Blue Forums Life and Moral Issues Morality & Society I dont owe humanity a damn thing

[quote=Tatuma
Well, he should stay away from here as both are endemic!

TAT [/quote]
I wanna go! I had swimming dreams last night, which are as good as flying dreams. Isn't it amazing how the subconscious copes? Oops. Off-topic. Sorry.

Not gonna work, reality bytes. The intended target of this thread was me in regard to my response to your claim that I “owed” “humanity” specific actions. Now you want to make it how “we treat “humans” in general – not any specific human”. You went from “humanity” to individuals (“humans”) in general but no specific individual (“human”). One reason for that, I suspect, is that you realized one cannot interact with “humanity”, but only with other individuals (humans). And it is not up to me to give examples of anything since it was you who first made a claim concerning my indebtedness to ‘humanity’. Instead you should provide an example of what debt I owe “humanity” and then explain why.

The historic basis for subordinating the Rights of individuals to the state, sending individuals into involuntary servitude, and pilfering their earnings has been the un-ending claim that the individual "owed" -- take your pick -- humanity, society, the King, the Capo, the Pack a portion of or all of his life. An individual can only be indebted to other individuals.
Yours,
Issodhos

It seems to me you are answering a question that isn't being asked: You speak of "the state" when others speak of "humanity." They are not the same.

Further, there may be a point that you are making in differentiating between "humans" and "humanity" but it seems to me every time you try you end up equating them. It also seems to me to be impossible to separate the two without going to use of "individual" as the opposite of "humanity."

If your argument is simply that "humanity" is a concept and therefore cannot be the object of anything, that seems to me to simply be an attempt to avoid the meat of the discussion.

You know, I've picked up that same thought from a number of other posters, expressed in a slightly different way, but the same general thought. I think a lot of us agree with you semantically - for example, a number who agree that nothing we do as individuals really addresses all of humanity on a measurable level, or those like myself who have difficulty accepting the applicability of the term "owe".

Maybe with a different starting point, we might find out how much we are really all on the same page. For example:
Soes that look like a true statement to you?

Hmmm. Who is saying you have to become a monk, Greger? More importantly, who is telling you to "hoard" your belongings and not give to the poor and needy? Surely it is up to you as to whether you wish to become a monk or not, and surely it is up to you as to what you do with your own belongings?

Perhaps, what really bothers you is the idea of you and others no longer being able to get the government to put a gun to your neighbor's head and force him to become a monk as well as forcing him to hand over whatever amount of his belongings y'all decide you want in any given year for whatever program-of-the-day is in fashion.:-)
Yours,
Issodhos

Oh really, Greger? There are just a few problems here once the warm and fuzzy kumbayesque fluff is blown off of your and some other posts. You wish to support the claim that individuals “owe” ‘humanity’, yet your very first example is one of you “owing” respect ONLY to those (individuals) you (as an individual) “deem worthy of it. You have demonstrated here that you do not think you “owe” ‘humanity’ respect – only individuals you deem worthy. I agree.

You then claim to “owe” kindness to your fellow man because some individuals showed it to you. Has not ‘humanity’ shown enough kindness to you for you to “owe” ‘humanity’ kindness and so state it here as an example --- or did that kindness come from individuals who bestowed it upon you (another individual)?

And then you say you don’t “owe” anything to charity but you give anyway in anticipation of possibly getting some of it back in the future. I agree in part. You do not owe anything to charity if you have not received it. Never the less, one gives simply because one thinks it is a good thing to do, doesn’t one?

Then you state that you “owe many debts of gratitude” to individuals for what those individuals did for you – individuals again, not ‘humanity’.

And now you want to revert from humanity to the actions of individuals leaving their individual foot prints unseen. I think if the warm and fuzzy kumbayaesque fluff is blown from your and a number of other posts we find that you and others have not shown any specific example of “what, if anything do we as individuals owe humanity?” which is the actual originating question asked in this thread.

Your stating that I am self-centered and greedy and seek to set myself above and separate from others simply shows that you, like a number of others here, mistakenly interpret a rejection of coerced giving and unwarranted demand as also rejecting voluntary giving and interaction.

I’ll close by suggesting that your way, the way of the “pack”, is what put George Bush into the White House – twice. That alone is enough to relegate your way to the dustbin of a long and bloody history.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos

humanity == collection of all humans, not just individuals that you meet personally - I thought I and several others made that clear from the beginning, several times.

If you don't want to answer the question just say so!

As for me I gave you plenty of examples for which you receive benefits (defense, research, exploration, hospitals, etc), everyone receives those benefits whether or not paying taxes (and many believe no one should pay taxes, but still receive those benefits) and should be grateful for and if not owe at least make an effort to contribute to the betterment of humanity as well.

The bit about govt, king, whatever is nothing that I said or am referring to, straw man alert.

I already acknowledged that "owed" may be too strong of a word, so tried to give you a break and ask at least that you 'care' about the effects of your actions on humanity, or I thought maybe we are defining terms differently, but you won't answer that, I have no further questions.

[Note: I do fairly strongly suspect that our failure to come to a meeting of the minds is a difference in definition, or at the very least a difference in perception... I don't foresee much more productive use of this space so maybe best to just agree to disagree at this point]

Humanity is made up of individuals, our individual efforts make up the efforts of humanity. Kumbaya My Lord. Perhaps you are the most generous individual I have ever met. Cum ba yah. Your words don't give me that impression. Cum by h'yah My Lord. You have painted my attempts at generosity and goodness towards mankind as the precursor to all things you view as politically evil. Come by here. You and I are different Issodhos. I see mankind as basically good and I want to be a part of it. Come by here My Lord, come by here. Someones doubt'n Lord. Come by here.

Even if I thought I was indebted to those voluntarilly serving in the military (I don't), my indebtedness would be only to them, and would not, for example, include the Federation of Russian Milkmen. If I thought I owned anything to researhers, it would be to them, not the Jujuweed (a vermin in Sudan) and the rest of humanity. Hospitals? If there were any indebtedness it would be to Nurses, Doctors, janitors, admin, donors, not the prison population of Rykers Island.

So, it is obvious that it is the individual or individuals that I would be indebted to -- not some questionable thing called 'humanity' that too many people wish to put legs, heart, and face to. And even to be indebted to the individuals mentioned, I would have had to have received something from them for which they remained uncompensated monetarilly or emotionally.

As I wrote earlier, I am indebted to specific individuals in my life. I also owe gratitude and respect to those individuals who have made the world a better place for all as a result of their work or effort -- but I don't owe 'humanity a damned thing. Course, I am a laid-back, easygoing, live-and-let-live kinda guy, so if others wish to wave the 'humanity' shibboleth about, it's still a semi-semi-free country.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos

Oh really? Such as?
Yours,
Issodhos
p.s. Doda! Doda!:-)