Capitol Hill Blue Forums Political Issues Politics In General libertarians = right wing anarchists

This thread has been about the political, Greger. And in addressing your question I also had in mind Schlack's erroneous "two tiered society" remark. Hence my remark concerning the law. I did not write that the law would "remain the same" as you state, but rather that individuals, regardless of whether they wish to live in a communal arrangement or exercise a more independent social and political relationship, would be subject to the same Rights-based law as all other individuals. That does not mean that those laws would be the same laws we now live under.

My comment concerning free association was in regard to how difficult it would be to actually be a political recalcitrant in a libertarian oriented free society, Greger.
Yours,
Issodhos

All the hardcore collectivists would certainly do their best (as they have always done) to sabotage a free, libertarian oriented society(that word makes me want to spit!) arrangement between free individuals. It will always be necessary to be on the look out for and counteract the nefarious goals of these "recalcitrants".

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ASIDE: I must say that I am in complete disagreement with the dictionary on the usage of this word. Their collectivist definition almost makes it sound like these are the type of individuals who would struggle against the evil of collectivism.
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would the difference boil down to those that pay taxes and recieve govt services and those that do not? that appears to be where te arguement always leads ;-)

do some then opt out of the common laws that they feel restrict their individualism?

do the indiviualists partake of the rest of societies facilites, for free or would you pay for it, pay be metre walked on a publicly funded sidewalk for instance.

Issodhos, You argue long and hard and type for hours trying to pound this through our thick skulls and believe me should you be offering a political philosophy that will largely solve the ills of society all individuals. I would like to learn more of it. You are a bit sketchy on details though and as we all know.....The is in the details.

So political recalcitrants would be a thing of the past as there would largely be nothing to be recalcitrant about. You could live alone or you could live in groups. This should pretty much make everybody happy.

The laws of the land would all change to better reflect their relationship to us as individuals rather than to us as a group. Very good. A daunting task though, don't you think? Would we start by striking all laws from the books or address them individually and restructure them to suit. Perhaps a new ten commandments sort of arrangement might work? Maybe you could jot down some ideas for us.

The choosing of leaders might be difficult as well but as right thinking individuals perhaps there will simply be no need for leadership. Since elections are skewed towards a collective mind, well, you get the picture right? Democracy is out the window. Perhaps you could just choose for us. Hell maybe you are the best qualified for the job of reforming the Western World.

See, I'm really trying to get this but keep running into problems which I admit are only because I can't break away from the collectivist thinking regardless of your attempts to help me. Perhaps you could link me to a website where I could study your philosophy in more detail?

Oh, nevermind Isso, I googled Libertarian. Hey If you guys are legit I may switch parties. You and Me Isso, we'll team up! We'll we'll bring everybody around to our way of thinking! er... one at a time of course, individually.

also there are other impediments to individual freedom, from other individuals (or even voluntary non collective groups)

say for instance, that a particular individual has an extremity of wealth and wants to do something against the wishes of another poorer individual. surely the advantages oof the wealthy individual will mean that they get their way and the poorer individuals freedom and choice are restricted.

how would an individualist society get over that particular impediment to freedom?

let me venture a guess that as long as rich mans goals do not infringe on poor mans rights (and how could they) then rich man may do as he pleases.

It is probably best not to twist my words, Schlack. It just makes your argument look quite disengeneous. Having lived in Europe and spent some of my early formative years there, I do not fault you for looking for a leader and a blue print. Unlike America, Europe does not have a tradition of individuals voluntarily self-organizing on a routine basis to deal with everyday things. In America individuals still volunteer for local projects, join volunteer organizations (e.g., fire departments and rescue squads, hospital assistents, charitable organizations) and do so without being instructed to do so by some "top-down" leader or authority figure.

There will be no blueprint nor will there be a "maximum leader" for directing 'The Plan'. A pillar of liberty is the voluntary human-directed action that develops once man's creativity is loosed. There will be many experiments, some of which will fail and others which will succeed. And yes, it will be a slow, incremental process because a system based on individual liberty born of natural Rights will require persuasion -- unlike the current system which is established and maintained at the point of a government bayonet.

One thing I am sure of is that America must remain relatively stable for such a transformation to successfully occur, because if America suffers a social or economic meltdown the result will be the emergence of a rightist or a leftist totalitarianism that will crush any divergent worldview.

As to how a libertarian influenced society would work? Getting there would have to be in small steps to give people the time needed to adjust (the transition alone could take several generations)and to do so within the constraints of the current system of governance.

"Roads" is not a very good example because most of the developed world already has all the primary roads in place it needs (indeed, America has more such road than it actually needs), but if developers want to build new 'communities' let them foot the bill for connector roads rather than continue to force 'the public' to subsidize such ventures. Maintenance of highway infrastructure would continue to be through user fees on fuel and/or with tolls (of course, this would mean that a portion of the money collected would no longer be fraudulently diverted to "public mass transit" schemes).

Some major milestones would be erecting a Constitutional wall of separation between commerce and state (and yes, that is a two-way separation), the rescinding of supracitizen status now held by government-created corporate legal entities, a decriminalizing of drug use and the release of all persons convicted under such laws, eliminating the Federal Reserve, establishing a free-market monetary system, et cetera. It's a start.
Yours,
Issodhos

I think you would have to look long and hard and you would still not find a posting where I suggested all the "ills" would be resolved, nor would you find where I write that "democracy is out the window", or that everyone would be happy. Indeed, as long as everyone refrains from infringing on the Rights of others their personal happiness is irrelevant.

I did provide Schlack several informative links on libertarian thought, as well as on anarcho-capitalism. I see no evidence of him using them so he will probably not mind you 'borrowing' them from him (I mean, why else would you ask for links that I have already provided in this thread to another unless you thought they were somehow restricted?:-)).

As to your conflating the Libertarian political party with libertarian philosophy, best not do that else you will simply end up confusing those who are unaware that the two are not synonomous. Anyway, you asked for some links so here are a few. The one offering free books (pdf format) is an especially valuable link. I would recommend "Human Action" by von Mises if you are interested in a book on the Austrian school of economics -- economics being recognized as an intergral part of of individual liberty.

Concerning land: LANDLOCKED

Common property in anarcho-capitalist societies

I would also suggest Thomas Paine's "Agrarian Justice" for his view on why land is different from other types of property.

Journal of libertarian Studies

Free books

The Ethics of Liberty

Vices are not Crimes -- Lysander Spooner
Yours,
Issodhos

Actually, Schlack, you are describing the system that you support and that is in effect today -- and has been for millinnia.

In a society based on natural Rights, if the wealthy fellow wanted to do something that did not infringe on the rights of the not-wealthy fellow, then it does not matter if it is against the wishes of the not-wealthy fellow. On the other hand, if it infringes on the natural rights of the not-wealthy fellow, then the wealthy fellow is prohibited from doing what he wishes to do unless the not-wealthy fellow voluntarily accepts compensation for the infringement, in either case the issue is resolved.
Yours,
Issodhos