Capitol Hill Blue Forums Life and Moral Issues Crime & Punishment Illegal Immigration and Appropriate Penalties

Immigration is a subject I love to "cuss and discuss" and I'd love to do some more of that.

As I can see it, there are two illegal acts at issue: a) Entering the States illegally, and b) Working without proper documentation.

The biggest arguments I've heard against these two acts is that a) they're illegal, and b) they cost a lot of money (paid primarily by taxpayers.)

My question is this: What should be the appropriate penalty for each of these acts? Remember, they can be committed separately as well; if someone is, say, getting paid under the table order to avoid garnishment for child support payments, they need to face the same punishment as anyone else. And if two people travel to the US together, illegally, but only one of them finds work -- what penalties should they pay?

You left out the most important underlying crime: Knowingly hiring illegal immigrants. If nobody did that, they wouldn't be coming here to begin with.

It is also the crime that we could prevent quite effectively, because the criminals have much more to lose than the people they hire.

PIA - I left it off because while I believe that hiring illegals is indeed the root of the problem, the reality is that much of the anger about illegal immigration ends up being directed at the immigrants themselves.

And I can see at least two, if not three or more crimes related to the employment of illegals. Maybe I'll start another thread for that, and hope to get two discussions going.

Mellow,

I would think that examining the present statues (federal and respective state) could already define the appropriate penalties.

Could it be that what laws exist are all that is needed to deal with illegal immigration problems and they just aren't being enforced?

One could "almost" compare illegal immigrate workforces in the U.S. to foreign countries who use the cheapest forms of labor to provide products world-wide for much lower cost, which increase the earning/investor ratios for the U.S.companies who solicit foreign manufacturers, purchase goods from them, and market products from those foreign countries to sell here.

Here in Texas, there are few commerical or residential home builder that don't have a majority illegal immigrant labor force doing their work for substantially less that U.S. workers. Food processors, farmers, landscaping, etc are doing the same.

These U.S. companies don't hire these folks unknownly...as of course we all know. But, so what? There are plenty of laws on the books all over the country who could put the whammy on it all...but businesses and law enforcement agencies choose to look the other way.

In a suburb of Dallas, a small town named "Farmers Branch" recently passed a law against renting houses and appartments to illegals...but whether or not that's made a difference...who knows for sure? My bet is...they just move a few feet away in another suburb city limits, or on the outer skirts of Dallas. No biggie.

Illegal immigration doesn't stop because nobody is consistently and persistently enforcing current laws. Why? It would be bad for the profit margins for many major U.S. companies.

Oh, one other thing...don't think that the local and federal government fail to make tax money off of these folks...bet they do in as many ways as the average U.S. citizen does...EXCEPT federal income tax. Yes, legal citizens do subsidize health, education, and other social services...but these 12 million illegals pump a lot of their earnings back into the econony. They buy groceries, tires, gasoline, clothing, automobiles, property owners for rent (some buy housing), etc...and so many of these things are taxed. So, the respective local venders of goods and services incomes increase too. Now they do pay taxes...which of course feeds into the federal and state tax system.

"Most people" in this country aren't business owners or own enough rental properties that would earn the significant incomes.
So all of those who have the money, businesses, corporations, and vast property ownership...they call the shots in the country. They make or break politicians those financial support via PAC machines, lobbyist, etc. They aren't going to give up the PROFIT because it pisses the rest of us everyday tax payers off.

Austin - several good points. How do you suggest we get that point made, so that people stop getting angry at immigrants? <grin>

Mellow,

Seems to me that failing to implement and enforce laws (federal and state) that have been in place for many, many years has created a possible legal quandary called "RESIDENT RIGHTS BY ESTOPPLE"...or something similiar.

I made up the term...but the legal key words here are "by estopple".

An example of "by estopple" is:

Let's say that I own property that has a road on it, which is the only means available to allow you to access your property. Let's also say that because of location of your property that it would be impossible for you to access any other way.

I, at some point in time, decided to allow you to access my property to access yours by creating a dirt road made simply by you continously driving back and forth to your property. I let you use that road for years to get to your home.

All of a sudden, I say, "No more, Mellow, you can't use my property to access yours." You say, "But, AR, I can't reach my property any other way and if you don't let me continue to use your property, I'll sue.

I would bet money that I would lose the lawsuit and you'd be allowed to continue to drive on my property to reach yours.

That happens all of the time to persons who build fences on someone elses property...which enlarges their own, but because of inaction, over time to dispute that fence...the land area ownership by one decreases for one owner...and thereby increases to the other. City governments often use estopple laws (rather than "Eminent domain laws" to enlarge easement properties by consuming a private land owners property. It can happen the other way around too.

If you don't use it...you lose it. It's that simple.

I think one major thing the immigrates needs to stop doing, in order to lower the flash point of anger with most American citizens across the country...STOP having mass parades down the city main streets waving their flags of origin and shouting out at all of the disparities committed against them...even though they've chosen to illegally enter the U.S., work and raise families without protection of so many local and federal laws. They do have basic rights under the Constitution's Bill of Rights...but to assume that their long-term lives here in the U.S. are now theirs to enjoy as qausi-citizens via "ESTOPPLE LAWS"...is a mistake on their part. American citizens by-in-large won't accept that. Corporations, on the other hand...they might be more sympathic to that idea.

So much time, resources, and political implications have impacted the way illegal immigrates affect our society...I believe that, by way of the concept of estopple laws (similiar to the old squatter rights laws), we as a society are going to have to begin to re-examine how we need to negoiate our co-existence with the current illegals...and draw a line in the sand...and begin to place serious efforts on future enforcement of the laws across the land. Otherwise, illegal proliferation is imminent.

Another 'spin zone' tactic by the politicians and media.
I know I'm slightly and I apologize but I have a hard time with these discussions. I should stay away.
Again off topic.
I just watched the netflix.... Wetback: The Undocumented Documentary, 2005 .
What they have to go through and the way they are treated. I wish you all would rent it.

Olyve

Ok now this is just reaction not based on any research other than watching that movie.
Illegal aliens who go through unbelievable risks to get here, many die in the process, most don't make it, are in the streets advertising that they are illegals???

Olyve, I'm with you, even though I haven't seen the movie. I've traveled across the border numbers of times and I teach people who may or may not be "documented" to speak English. I don't ask. I don't care. Well, I do care because I want everyone who wants to better their lives to have a chance to do that. Yes, there were a few demonstrations out in CA, but most undocumented workers are so terrified that they will barely leave their homes, much less parade down the street.

EmmaG

It seems to me those protests only started last year or the year before. It also seems to me that the right to ... the right to... you know, to gather for a big party and carry weird signs ... no, not a political convention... oh yeah, freedom to assemble and speak!

So you're saying, Austin, they'd have better luck of getting their rights if they chose not to use them quite so publicly, am I hearing you right?