Capitol Hill Blue Forums Life and Moral Issues Crime & Punishment Illegal Immigration and Appropriate Penalties

Steve
YOu are comparing my wife being anoyed because she had to jump thought lots of hoops and wait for 6 months to come jin her husband when other people come and do none of that. And you say that is comparable to
Steve, you usually have something more sensible to say


Regards
Ardy

Sorry to be unclear in my english.
Coming here with "impunity" refers to the practice of entering this country (coming) with out paying any attention to any of the laws concerning that process (with impunity). It has nothing to do with what happens to people after they arrive.

Ardy

the 38 hour week keeps them 'part time' and therefore aren't eligible for benefits.
this is common practice in college towns with college students

I mistyped, Olyve. It's a 48 hour week, with no days off. Very sorry.

Five 8-hour days, and two 4-hour days.

Ok
I am not quite sure about the arguements that are being proposed on this thread.

It is the case that the US government and corporations have done some horrible things. And therefore, anyone from anywhere can enter this country without documentation?


.................

When these undocumented workers arrive here, they are often treated poorly by employers. And therefore what? I men what Beyond what we have all agreed upon... IE illegal hiring is a big problem and should be strongly addressed.

Ardy, I cannot speak for anyone else, but I fail to see the reason for the ardor about undocumented workers. As I have indicated, this is a problem way down my list of important issues.

Our nation's past and present conduct of international affairs was tendered not to excuse anything, but to explain how many who enter this country without legal status have come to do so. The conditions in which they work likewise is not meant to justify anything but goes to counter the implication that they have entered without adverse consequences.

There is no reasonable refutation of the claim that these workers are indispensable to our economy. To the extent that is true, we as a people are better served finding ways to legalize their presence and create an orderly process for it in my opinion.

oops....
I could've have done the math couldn't I?

You're right. You caught me channeling Fermi.

Ah. Begging your pardon, but it was your unclear English that got me on the wrong track. "Impunity" means something different from what you've expressed.

[b]Impunity[/b]: exemption from punishment, harm, or loss.

It has everything to do with what happens after.

I mostly do not disagree with you Phil. But the fact is that this has become an important issue in the elections and so becomes a default topic of conversation. I did not start this thread, and do not ever recall starting a thread on this topic. I have, however started and contributed extensively to threads on medical insurance and climate change.

Phil,
people from poor countries tend to try to migrate to rich countries. I personally do not agree that the primary cause of poverty on all of these countries is based upon US foreign police (even though I agree with much of the criticism of that policy mentioned in this thread). Take for example Mexico... can you provide me with a a summary how we have made this country poor? As I understand it, they had have distrusted/hated us ever since the Mexican American war. And as a result, their government has not allowed US corporations to run rampant. The poverty of Mexico seems mostly related to internal factors as far as I can tell.

Phil, I think you are confusing two separate issues. One issue being the act of entering this country illegally and the consequences of that illegal entry.

The second issue has to do with the the issues of working illegally in this country. The simple fact is that illegal behaviour is not well regulated. IE you can be ripped off in a drug transaction and unable to go to the police. Most posters agree that this is a horrible circumstance but that it is related to the illegal nature of the activity. And the obvious solution is to find a way to have all this activity happen within a legal context. That includes punishing employers who hire illegally.


I mostly agree with you. But in my direct experience, many illegal workers are moving into jobs where they are in fact directly replacing and excluding a legal worker. And in that circumstance, they are not "indispensable"... except to employers who want to take advantage of them.

Both the "left" and the "right" in the United States have been guilty of promoting this latest "wedge" issue (aka illegal immigration)

The "left" likes to offer polyanish utopian ideals to the issue of unfettered immigration with simplistic bumper sticker replys like "no human being is illegal".

The "right" likes to pretend that racism and nationalism play no significant role in creating their attitudes about immigration and they are simply advocating the rule of law.

Neither is complete or honest in their evaluations.

The reality is that US trade policies and the corporate multi-nationals that drive them are behind the increase in undocumented workers.

Cheap labor that can't vote is exactly what the perverted version of US capitalism promotes and continues to make possible.

Those who truly care about "social justice" need to understand that fact.

Those who care about maintaining the "Dan Quayle" vision of America also need to understand that "leave it to beaver" view of American life died long long ago.

The issue of undocumented workers needs an objective analysis that is based on what is good for all people and the planet and the less sophisticated among us who see this issue as being simple need to take a big step back and understand why we are where we are at instead of simply repeating the mantras they heard from the corporate elite controlled media whose goal is to divide us to diminish our power.

As an environmentalist, I understand that unfettered immigration is a recipe for environmental disaster.

As an advocate for social justice, I understand that allowing corporate America to facilitate cheap labor for profit while undermining the American worker is not a progressive value.

The legal arguments by proponents for building walls and fences and increasing the power of our growing police state are silly to me precisely because at one time a black man was legally considered to be 3/4 of a person and a woman was not allowed to vote. That was the law.

Arguing that "the law" is the issue here ignores this nation's long long history of creating immoral and unconstitutional laws.

Creating cooperative communities where power manifests itself on the local level is the solution. But then that would involve tearing down the existing structure which would most likely invoke violent revolution and a crackdown by our evergrowing police state.

But let's stop taking the bait by creating yet another senseless wedge issue by pretending that being environmentally sensible and socially just is another way of saying we should have open borders.

Let us also abandon talk of the "law" when what we people are actually saying is that "we don't want no more damm Mexicans in our country!"

Leave that kind of simplistic linear thinking to the Sean Hannity's, Rush Limbaugh's, and Bill O'Reilly's of the world.