Capitol Hill Blue Forums Life and Moral Issues Crime & Punishment Illegal Immigration and Appropriate Penalties

Strange, huh? Here's a thought: Apply and be approved for legal immigration to the United States.

...just an idea.

Is it not the epitome of arrogance to enter a country illegally then to protest the laws of that country?

To fly your flag on top of the host country's flag?

To fly the host country's flag upside down? Or not at all?

I have a real, big, problem with arrogant people.

Should I illegally take up residence in Canada simply because my life would be better off in Canada because my native country defines marriage as "between a man and a woman"?

Should Canadian citizens turn a blind eye to my ending up in their country illegally? Even if I only get work at a Subway® sandwich shop even though I have a degree in Nutrition and can perform better work?

Should Canadians have empathy for me because I must live in fear and hiding because of my action of taking up illegal residence in Canada?

Color me naive, I suppose, but I think laws ought to be applied equally - and I think there are a lot of assumptions made so I'd like to make a few comparisons and ask questions to make sure we all understand what is a known fact, and what is an assumption..

(By the way - I went to the Dept of State, and asked what visa requirements are for entering the U.S. - all I found so far is:)
Interesting.

Anyway, I really don't know the legalities of other citizens visiting the U.S., particularly other North Americans, so I have the following questions:

Comparison 1, 'Just Visiting':
I can visit Canada, But I am not allowed to work there.
Canadians can visit the U.S., but cannot work here.
Can Mexicans visit here, without working? Should they?
(BTW I have no idea if Canadian or U.S. citizens can visit and work in Mexico)

Also, I can visit Canada, and AFAIK Canadians can visit the U.S., without a visa. Can Mexicans visit either the U.S. or Canada without a visa? If a visa is required, what is the process?


Comparison 2, 'Casual Labor':
I can pay any U.S. worker up to $400 (as of a few years ago, but it may have increased), without needing a W4 or giving a W2, or filing/paying SS taxes. Does that include Mexicans and Canadians? Should it?


Comparison 3, 'Gifting':
I can 'gift' any U.S. worker up to $10,000 per year, without paying gift taxes, or paying any payroll taxes. The catch is that it can only be personal money, after taxes, and is not deductible as an expense. Does that include Mexicans and Canadians? Should it?


Now for some basic questions specifically about employers-

For those employers that are hiring undocumented workers, are they deducting it as an expense? If so, how is it done, without being blatantly illegal?

For those employers that are hiring documented workers with false documents, how do they find out if they are false? What are the legal requirements in such case? What do they actually do in such cases?

To what extent should employers be require to verify identity and documents before allowing a new hire to perform work?

Should Canadians and Mexicans be treated equally?

[FWIW, I think all of the answers to the first part should be 'yes', and regarding employers: if they break the law, they should suffer the appropriate punishment; and they should treat Mexican and Canadian citizens exactly the same. Also, the only requirement for verifying work documentation should be a Social Security card, validation of such as a true document should be up to the issuing agency, not the employer - unless someone has a better idea?]

I think we all ought to be flying the U.S. flag upside down right now.

It is the international sign of 'distress'.

All gays are promiscuous

All gay people have aids

homosexuals are paedophiles.

You should be very careful with your generalisations there Rick.

Wow, you sure ask a lot of questions!

Mexicans can visit the US briefly without a visa, but now they do have to have an official Mexican government ID like a passport. Lots of Mexicans make daytrips into San Diego and other border towns to shop. If they try to travel north into Orange County without a visa, they get turned back at the INS checkpoint.

US citizens can visit Mexico without a visa, but they better have their US passport with them to get back into the US! If they want to go past around a hundred miles or stay longer than a couple of weeks they need a tourist permit (costs just a few dollars). To work in Mexico foreigners all need a work permit.

The casual labor tax withholding limit does not affect the employer's legal obligation to check that the person he hires has a right to work in the US. The law recognises no monetary limit for that. Paying an illegal $5 to help you load your pickup truck is illegal!

You can give anybody up to $10000 without paying gift tax, but you can give all you like by reporting it and paying Uncle Sam. As long as it is a gift, it is YOUR tax, not the recipient's. So I don't think it would matter if that person was a citizen of another country. You do have to report transfers of money across borders, but it is not illegal to do so. (Customs and DEA will just assume you are a drug smuggler until you prove otherwise!) If you try to "gift" your illegal employee instead of paying them, the IRS will figure that out and throw your ass in jail.

Companies can't deduct expenses for paying illegals, so they instead pay a labor contractor who then pays the illegals. Or they just pay out of petty cash and forgo the deduction.

Employers have a choice: They can use the government's quick-check ID verification system or they can rely on their own ability to spot fake documents. If they use the quick-check their legal liability is very limited. If they don't then they can face huge fines and even jail when they are caught with illegal employees. So every legit company is using the quick-check. The problem is that "quick" is a relative term. The identity check can take a couple of months, then they have to give the "potentially undocumented employee" another two months to get some valid papers together. Then they submit the new identity papers and another couple of months can go by before they get word that the new ID is fake. Then they have to fire the guy, but the INS is never dispatched to deport him. So illegals can work at a job for about 6 months (certainly a harvest or a planting season), and then just go find another job!

As for treating Mexicans versus Canadians differently, that only is present in the country quotas for the legal immigration process. Illegals are still illegal no matter where they came from. And BTW, many Hispanic illegals are from countries even poorer or more repressive than Mexico.
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One of my students is from Guatemala. He has been here 12 years. When he arrived here, he immediately began the process of documenting his presence here. As long as you are in the process, you can stay and you can work. HOWEVER, you cannot leave. So he has not been able to go back to Guatemala and see his parents and family FOR TWELVE YEARS. He runs a little drywall company, pays taxes, including payroll and social security taxes. About a month ago (TWELVE YEARS LATER) he received his "green card".

Just a little story.

And an excellent little story Emma. It doesn't exactly highlight the arrogance Rick was speaking of though. What it does show is that applying for and receiving 'legal' status here is not as easy as one might imagine.
Let's assume for a moment that during the first three or four years here he may have retained some national pride for the country of his birth and mistakenly flew his flag above that of the American flag. After all he is a foreign citizen and as yet he owes no allegiance to this country. By flying the flag of his nation above that of the one he hopes to become a citizen of is he somehow being arrogant or is he showing his pride in both nations in an appropriate way?
The laws of this country, just like the laws of the country he came from are skewed towards the rich and powerful. He is punished for being here but the rich and powerful are not punished for enticing him here by offering jobs to undocumented workers. Is it arrogant to wish to change these laws?
Rick, Try to look at these people as human beings, trying to survive, trying to feed their families. Trying to retain some pride in a life that few of us could imagine. Survival should not be illegal or determined by a line in the dirt. Corporate America has complete control of the immigration situation. Until they are held accountable and guest worker status is streamlined the situation will only get worse.

I do have one other question about parades, and I think my experience will echo Emma's.

Those parades are in sympathy with illegals - but there is no way of knowing how many of the people in the parade are a) here illegally, b) legal immigrants or in the process of becoming so, and c) American citizens by birth.

For people who are here illegally, marching in such a parade is not only physically dangerous because of the actions of the police (as we saw last year) - it can also get you arrested and deported, because ICE is watching.

When you have gone through a great deal of effort to get into the US, when people at home are dependent on your earnings, crossing the police is not something you do just because you can. Even if you're a legal immigrant, a police stop can be a major hassle.

I wonder if anybody did an estimate as to the residency status of the people in those parades.