Capitol Hill Blue Forums Misc. Topics The Media "We scream, We Swoon, How Dumb Can We Get?"

On that I agree wholeheartdly

Give the U.S. military credit. They are the best trained in the world, ever in the history of the world. Compared to most of the world's military forces all U.S. forces are elite. Head and shoulders better than most. They are well trained. You cannot be as disciplined and dedicated and have many rotten apples. Can't happen.

If you could spend a week with these men and women, even stateside, you'd be absolutely amazed at the jobs they do almost flawlessly. I'm serious. You have no idea what an 18 or 19 year old member of the U.S. Armed Forces is capable of doing - and does - 24/7. The responsibility some of these young troops are routinely given would blow your mind. And they do it well.

At times it breaks my heart when I think of their sacrifices, what their government asks them to do again and again and again when I know first hand how they will be treated when they come home. They still get spit on by America. Yep. Where are the protesters demanding for better pay and healthcare and treatment of our military and their families and veterans? Most of the yellow flag sticker patriots have long since abandoned these most worthy Americans.

Imagine going to a war you don't agree with and doing things you don't believe are in the best interest of any nation. These guys do it and they do it damned well.

I think the military works hard at removing the bad apples, but you can't do it before the fact any better than you can do it in civilian life. At the same time it's difficult to create a warrior attitude and remove the ones who appear too warrior.

In Vietnam I saw or knew of guys who did stuff I couldn't believe. Bad stuff. Some of it involved Vietnamese women. We policed our own. Problem is a lot of those guys were fine up to the point that they weren't fine. Extreme, prolonged stress does that to people.

Women in combat support units in Iraq has to be an added hassle most CO's would rather not have to deal with. I'd imagine that all things being equal it's bad for morale as well. But all this assumes that having women serving in combat support or combat units is acceptable. If you don't have women there then rape and sexual harassment and sexism isn't an issue.

Women can't train like men and they shouldn't train with them, ergo they shouldn't serve with them in combat.

Baloney. It seems that you prefer to punish the victims and NOT the wrongdoer. If men are that unstable under combat conditions, then maybe it's the MEN that need to get out and play the subservient role in the military. A lot of this happens to stem from the way male soldiers cover for each other, kinda like the "Blue Shield" wall of silence crap in law enforcement. War is Hell and why should women have to take a backseat because these fragile-minded men can't handle it?

I think that 99% of ALL military personnel(of both genders) do an excellent job, for which they are highly under-appreciated. And yes, there are always going to be the a$$holes whom never should have been allowed in the first place. But guess what? We have them here in our own streets doing these very horrible acts-There are some parts of America's inner cities that you can't pass through without being in eminent danger of gunshots or worse. Men, women and children already live this, not just for a few tours of duty, but every day for years. They have already been raised in combat zone.

Bullshit, Mick.
both MY daughters and granddaughter to boot could hold their own in the military....IF they believed in wars and didn't leave the country first....which at least part of them don't. The other....well we'll just have to see how that littlun feels later on.
Keeping men and women separated from job opportunities because they might lose control and rape each other is absurd.

I think we are approximately the same age. I invite you to come 'train' with me at my gym, Mick.
Damn...

Off topic...
I was in THAT war too, Mick.
And the soldiers WERE NOT spit on. That is fiction not fact.

women shouldn't serve in the military.....


neither should men

Damn sensible!

I agree. It helps to clear out any ambiguities.;-)
Yours,
Issodhos

Olyve, dear lady, compatriot, and friend, I appreciate your passion. In fact I welcome it. I am also most grateful that you got laid last weekend. I'm thinking that it helped temper your post. Give me a wild eyed Southern lady to challenge my beliefs. I know being such you will always feel free to challenge my statements and opinions. I value that. I will always take your criticism to heart. I can tell you that Southern men don't always act like we listen, but you know we take it to heart. Y'all all know that. We do listen, with great respect, though we'd rather not act like it. Y'all all know that too.

Once at the gym the aerobics instructor (a female) was short a classs by about 50%. She came out into the gym and asked for volunteers. This was during the day midweek and most of us working free weights were hard core lifters. Several of us agreed to join her after much cajoling and pleading.

The women kicked our ass. I'll never do that again. Actually, it's been a few years and I couldn't attempt it again. Even if I could I wouldn't try it. Look at an aerobics class, you never see many guys in there. There is a reason for that. LOL! We can't compete. No contest.

Regarding military training, we aren't however talking apples to apples. It is only slightly about physical strength, though that is important. Why do you not see women playing on men's sport teams? When is the last time you saw a woman in the NFL? I'm not saying NFL is the same as the military but if we're talking physical strength and athletic ability, women can't compete.

It's impossible to ask a young boy to take it like a man when you ask a young girl to do the same thing. One of them is going to fail and that is where the problems begin.

Military training is as much an art as it is a science. It is not running up a bunch of hills and the weak one get sent home kind of affair, not by a long shot. In basic you are psychologically broken down and rebuilt. I tell you true.

When the fit hits the shan, having been there, I can tell you I'd rather be with guys. It's tough and you pull each other through it. That is the way it is. Women don't belong, and further more most women don't want to belong.

War is the ultimate way you can prove yourself as a man. Is war the ultimate way you can prove yourself as a woman?

I wasn't spit on but coming back to "the world" in February, 1970. But, a bartender refused to serve 5 of us drinks at the bar at O'Hare, Chicago. I'd met up with a few guys in SEATAC, Seattle, who were returning from the war and flying on to Chicago. We were scared sh*tless. At least, I know I was. It was a trip coming home and while I was thrilled at the same time, America scared the hell out of me. It had become so goddam foreign, and people didn't understand what I knew or where I had come from. I wasn't comfortable at all being back. (Six months later I volunteered, begged, to ship back over.)

The bartender at O'Hare refused to serve us. He said if we didn't leave there would be trouble. We said, "Ooooo, what are you going to do? Send us to Vietnam?" We'd been there, done that. There was nothing you could threaten us with. Ironically, I suppose, we were trying very hard not to call attention to ourselves. We didn't want to be noticed.

He called the cops. Airport police showed up and we explained our side. We were dead quiet and mostly scared to be back. That was most definitely our demeanor. None of us had had even one drink. The cops were great and said that they would not ask us to leave but that it was likely that we'd never get served. After a while we left.

In the South, Oylve, we were treated very well. Going to war is what Southern men do best, as I am sure you well know. We do it better than most other regions of the nation. Because of the Scots-Irish and Irish blood, they say.

It was, back then, pretty much expected that you would go. I volunteered to enlist, as did most of my friends. It's what you do if you are from Dixie, you go. I never thought twice about it. They never thought twice about it when I came back. Damn near all my friends went. Some didn't make it home. It never dawned on me there was a different way. You just went and did your best. Everyone back home was great, but as it was it was more a right of passage than an act of bravery. It's just what you did, what your daddy did and his daddy did. It's what your friends did and your brothers did. It's a bit difficult to expect a hero's welcome when most everyone you knew was doing the same thing.

I don't want to get bogged down in this debate, but I wanted to make a point.

The military in Iraq is NOT the military of old. Lets not forget that this administrations handling of this war has been incompentent. With that the rate of new recruits has gone down... so what did they do? The lowered the standards. Many young men are going over to Iraq with known mental problems, criminal records and known propensity for violence. Don't you think that would increase the chances of bad acts?

I just want to make one other point. What we want to be truth is often a long way from what the truth actually is. Yes, I want to see woman given every opportunity that any man has. If a woman wants to serve in the Military I believe she should be given that chance and if that includes combat then so be it. However the fact remains that no matter how much we wish, want or demand that men who rape or abuse take responsiblity for their actions...they won't. The reality of things NOW in this moment is that women are being raped and not a few by a "few" bad apples, but on a pretty large scale. You are not able to compare the actions of these bad apples here to what is happening there. There is way too much of a difference, area, situtation etc.. to make the a plausalbe argument. It's as dishonest an argument as the one used by the Bush supporters who compared the loss of life in Iraq with car accidents in the US.

The fact is their is a difference between men and women. Men got the braun women got the brains (not that women can't be tough). Why do we demand that women be forced into combat, possibly what they would be better at is the logistical strategy of war. Women are the stronger sex in many ways but there is nothing wrong with recongnizing the difference and understanding that those differences don't have to be at odds but actually could work together.

Bottom line as a country, as a man or a woman we should respect our soldiers and support them in every way possible. It takes a great deal of strength for many of the women serving to willingly leave their children and families to serve their country.