Capitol Hill Blue Forums Life and Moral Issues Morality & Society Of National Lies and Racial Amnesia

iss - you make assumptions, by nature of your posts at least, that people have a desire to be educated on such matters. most people, with or without the benefit of education, would choose to turn a blind eye to the nature of sin that indicts them either directly or indirectly. and what does it matter, the color of one's skin, when discussing the state of human kind.

Julia, thanks for attempting to get us refocused. In addressing your questions, I am struck by how impossible this discussion is in the absence of voices from "black" America. Even with a portion of my blood running to an African ancestry I did not grow up in a "black" area and therefore my experiences do not reflect that perspective.

What I do know is that even the most "assimilated" African-American friends of mine have a significantly different mindset from me. Even being gay does not afford a similar mindset despite our shared experience of "differentness" and exclusion.

I am able to see some of the deeply ingrained prejudices, practices and prerogatives of the white-male power elite, but only those to which I have been exposed. Someone described it as being like trying to describe water to a fish. It is difficult to see one's environment as subjective -- it appears to be so "true" and objective to ourselves.

For me the challenge of the day, and I believe it is what Obama spoke of, is to discuss the subject as though we know nothing useful about it. Only then will new truths and fresh directions appear.

Some of these discussions, if conducted at a level of honesty and openness will contain hurtful words and messages of pain and distrust. That is the way it is for most people it seems. Despite an intellectual ability to be even handed and open, for some that is possible only because we may not have had to confront the sometimes irrational, sometimes perfectly reasonable wounds that sear the battlegrounds of our national and individual past.

I have yet to read the unvarnished, unprotected words of those who feel the oppression of the past in this discussion here. Without those words I think we are engaged in philosophical masturbation.

Mellow,
I am responding to your questions with a story. Sadly, a true story. I am a white guy. In 1990, I moved to the capital city of one our southern states. A long time ago, yes, but long after we supposedly became an integrated society.

I went downtown to the water company to set up my utilities. Walked into a pretty normal stone office building, down a hall to the door marked water department, opened the door and walked in. There were probably 10-12 people at the counter waiting to be served and one clerk behind the counter to wait on them. It was a lunch hour.

As I walked into the room, all the customers standing at the counter moved to the sides of the room, leaving an open spot at the center of the counter. The clerk moved automatically to that spot and said to me, "May I help you sir?"

I motioned to the other folks and noted that they were all ahead of me and I would be happy to wait. They all motioned me to the counter and she said it was my turn.

Somewhat surprised, I looked around the room more carefully. The clerk and I were the only white people in the room.

Do I think I see our society differently than they do? Yep.

Thank you for the story, but what happened then? Assuming they actually were waiting in line, did you accept your 'privileged' position? Why or why not?

in the south there are pockets of racism that, as one expert on the subject pointed out to me not too long ago, the civil rights movement never reached. south carolina was and is, one of those places, as well as parts of louisiana, arkansas and mississippi. we have a long way to go and facing the reality of our human shortcomings, but i believe for many we are on our way. for those who wish to deny the reality of racism and fear, it may take more than one lifetime to surpass this unfortunate pitfall of human nature.

Phil, I hope you don't mind; I cut your post down to some sentences that struck me especially hard.

Regarding the absence of black voices in this forum: Yes, that's a problem - but it also assumes that in any discussion of race/racism, "we" will be talking about "them." Historically, "they" have not been the problem; the dominant (white) sector of society has been the problem.

Therefore there should be something white people have to teach each other.

It's true that in an interracial dialogue, we have a lot more listening to do than talking. That alone will make any kind of useful dialog difficult; we are all (of all races) fond of our own voices. But I don't think that the absence of black voices means that a discussion would be valueless.

then let's stop talking about "them" and start talking about "us." us has a big role here and perhaps it's time to start owning up to it, whether one considers himself racist or not. in fact i propose that those who say they are not racist are indeed further from being not racist than they are able to admit because, you know, one of their "best friends is black," or "im voting for obama so how could i be ..." etc. and so forth.

Julia, I am not suggesting a discussion primarily among non-African ancestry people is valueless, just less valuable.

The problem is, that every time we start to get at something that seems to be in the direction 2wins suggests, we are met with resistance, denial or philosophizing.

what I know for certain is that I approach differently colored, differently abled, and differently dressed people with a set of preconceptions. I, like many people, try to mask that preconception and not act upon it, but it is there.

When I drive through certain areas I lock my car doors, but not in others. Some areas I won't even drive through. I consider myself to be very non-prejudiced in my conduct, but then most of us do.

I know that I carry many opinions about how badly many groups have been treated by whites, and even though I have done little of such bad behavior myself, I carry shame for it having been done.

Some here criticize that sense of shame and eschew "group responsibility". To me that seems preposterous and something only a privileged person would say. They disagree.

I try to look through the eyes of people I know extremely well who are non-white, non-European or differently abled. I can get a glimmer of how the world looks, but only that. I try my best to listen to what they say on the subject, but notice it is very difficult to get the kinds of opinions I am told are uttered between people of the same "category."

That rings true because I know that among my gay friends we speak one way about other people and our experiences than we do with non-gay people. It is just the way it is. Fortunately for me and my friends, America is more open to honesty about gay matters.

But I think the gap between the "white" experience and the "black", "brown", and "yellow" experiences is still large, significant and daunting.

Phil - I think we are in agreement on all points.

2wins noted that you are making an assumption that people want to be 'educated' about race; he also said at the end that some people think it is enough to speak of humankind... I'm not sure if the linkage is intended, but if so that would be a pretty apt description of myself, especially the second part.

It's not that I do not want to be educated; I do. It's just that I was raised with the ideal of colorblindness, that one should treat their fellow human with equal respect, without regard to race, gender, ethnicity, etc... given that assumption, why would I seek out books on 'how it is to be black'? I read the obligatory 'Black Like Me' in high school, but that was pretty much it. The one black kid in our high school was co-valedictorian; sure I knew of the past, but as far as I knew, that was ancient history (when you're 18, 10 years in the past seems ancient). When I went to college there were plenty of minorities everywhere, no racism in sight, everything seemed colorblind as I was taught it should be. I met a few black friends, but it never seemed necessary to bring up race issues, so I didn't. The few that did come up were usually about affirmative action, as I mentioned before, because it was relevant to college life.

At the same time, there were others that did resent affirmative action, not only because of the perceived unfairness but also compounded by the undercurrents of fear and prejudice, and which also made them more susceptible to overt racist speech (Aryan Nation, etc), but which would never be admitted. With such feelings, there is little doubt that that would result in racism; perhaps not quite overt, but racist nonetheless. As for people like me, although we would see colorblindness as the ideal, the ignorance of other people's perspectives serves as kind of a slap in the face to those who have to live the consequences of racism, both overt and covert, every day, even today.

No, I am not going to assume responsibility for crimes I have not committed; and no I don't think they want to be seen, nor do I see them, as victims; I think they simply want have the situation they face to be acknowledged so they will have some help in eliminating it.

But what I do take responsibility for is my ignorance; and that is the lesson that I think Pastor Wright (to some extent), and certainly Barack Obama have really been addressing... from my experience there is still a lot of ignorance, beginning with myself and just about everyone I know in everyday life... whether the information is hidden or not is not really relevant.

So, yes, I think people like Wise and Wright and Obama are definitely needed to 'wake people up', even if they might not be addressing you.