Capitol Hill Blue Forums Life and Moral Issues Education US Schools -- a failed system?

Ron, my point is I see no merit in "blaming" anyone. What I see for the most part are students who are trying to figure out what it will take to make it in life. parents who are more stressed about having enough income to keep all their "toys" afloat, and a school system that is so underfunded it is criminal.

I know simply more money isn't the only answer. But my state, a "blue" one, has dropped from number 3 in school funding per pupil to 46th during my lifetime. It defies logic to expect the same results as when schools were the top priority.

When I and maybe many others here, were in school I dare say most of us had parents who took an interest in whether our homework was done, if we were learning, etc. From what I hear that is not as common about parents today.

I agree that there are major problems with the educational apparatus and have said so. In large part, however, that is not because schools don't want more adult participation but because they are afraid of not meeting artificial goals and of the possibility of sexual misconduct allegations.

We have been taught to fear everyone and everything, not by schools, but by power mad politicians and a compliant and sometimes lazy press (except of course people like 2wins ;))

What I am saying is that more effort into participating in real world on the ground solutions and less describing what is wrong will probably more helpful.

Ron I am glad you have taken that on yourself and applaud you for it. Many others have done something themselves, if no more than vote for a legislator who favors increased school funding.

Without wanting to go too far off topic, I fear we are a nation of chronic complainers and finger pointers. That is not going to produce any change and will actually stand in the way of it. I am merely saying either do something about what one perceives as a problem or get out of the way of those who will.

there is one thing i would like to add to ron's last post. as an editor i have taken on college students as freelancers and interns. with two exceptions i have been blown away at their lack of basic grammar and punctuation skills. now what makes this especially problematic is that they are either english, creative writing or journalism majors. one of them, a senior at the time, required constant editing and could not grapple with the fundamentals whatsoever. she graduated with a ba and went on to apply for graduate school, asking me for a recommendation. i did not offer one. somehow, she was accepted into a program, regent university i believe, pat robertson's virginia beach university. i just shake my head. for my part, i will go on record saying i was an abysmal high school student who didn't give a rats arse. i didn't excel until i began to take higher education seriously, in my early twenties. i have had a knack, if you will, for writing and the english language in general. additionally, partly as a result of what i see happening with education these days - regardless of where the blame rests - we have our oldest studying latin. now, why do we do this? simply because i can point three major languages influenced by latin that she will likely study at university, including english. i only point this out because we have stripped latin from the schools to make way for things like compulsory reading enhancement programs that do nothing but drill and practice. as phil pointed out to me elsewhere, the parents have a role here and will say that those who influence their children will see greater progress from their children as where those who do not, well, you can figure that out. to simply blame the schools is not correct. that in my opinion establishes a victim culture, making poor stupid joe schmoe parent the victim etc., and, well, people are smarter than all that. no the blame rests with all of us, even you ron, as an educator, for not taking part in the solution. frankly, to sit back and criticize while declaring your libertarian or whatever view you have isn't helping any. as a teacher i am sure you are doing something at your level, but what have you contributed to the problem we are discussing? me? i have battled with the public schools over various issues for years. and while i admit there are some public schools i would not mind my daughters attending, i am tired of the battle and find that home schooling is far more creative and conducive to a creative, liberal - see the latin - education than we find where we curerntly reside..

A couple of comments here: First, those of you who are upset with schools in Texas need to remember that Texas ranks very low among the states in educational achievement - in part because you got to experience NCLB before the rest of us did. But it's a bit out of balance -- let's pick on Louisiana -- to say "the American education system stinks; look at all the students I see" when you're looking at the poorest, or near-poorest, schools in the nation.

Kind of like driving a Pinto and claiming, on that basis, that all American cars are lousy.

Ron, I have a bone to pick with one of your statements specifically:

Nobody is forcing anybody to send kids to public school. Kids have to be educated, yes. That can happen at home, at fancy prep schools, at private schools, or in public schools. If anybody's kids are "kidnapped" it's because their parents took them to the front steps of the school and signed the enrollment papers. There are alternatives, and 2wins has made sacrifices to see that his kids are educated the way he wants them to be.

Your statement is pure hyperbole.

Sorry, Phil, but I'll continue to put most of the blame on the "education" cartel.

The single most influential factor in a child's real education is parental involvement; however, a decent teacher can replace a large part of that deficiency. Unfortunately, a large part of what passes for teaching these days seems to be steering the younguns to certain bureaucratically-prescribed way-points on the course to creating the social autochthon required to fit in properly.

I am opposed to rewarding failure with additional public monies. The Congress and the "education" cartel need a thorough series of high colonics to correct the problem. Education needs, IMCO, to come back to earth, to be a largely local matter with minimal state and absolutely no federal encroachment.

In terms of public funding, what is the per capita for California at 46th compared to its former number three ranking? Or, how much per capita separates California from the higher deciles?

In terms of civic audit, who should be in charge of the overall education of a child in a public school system? A federal or a state bureaucracy, or the local and far more accountable school board?

My own experience with my daughter in the third grade makes me very sensitive to the application of some governmental ukase - forced busing - as a substitute for actual education and what a parent can do to end the bullshit offered in place of an education.

Julia,

I was referring to the public school system that all of us - with or without children - pay taxes to support. I have no problem with home-schoolers if they are actually schooling their children - they are really the ultimate in involved education. And private schools are fine, too. As I recall it, the Roman Catholic church developed an excellent and expensive system of sectarian education just so that their faithful could follow their own lights; ditto various schulen that Jews developed for that reason.

But something like 90%-95% of parents with kids have no such choice available to them. Then, see what happens to you if you try and keep your child out of the system. The Amish in Ohio had a lengthy court fight to keep their young out of grades 9-12 and out of the clutches of the Ohio education cartel.

That's what I mean by having your children kidnapped.

I know you're referring to public education, Ron. I'm just saying there are alternatives, it's not mandatory, therefore it's not kidnapping.

And I'm curious - who is "the education cartel?"

Not a challenge - just asking.

Julia,

No challenge at all. If you do not like the term cartel, then how about monopoly?

I'm referring to the official bureaucracy - AFAIK, there is one in every state - as well as the federal Frankenstein, the DoEd ,that oversees who gets taught, what they get taught, how it is to be taught and who may do the teaching.

The cartel [monopoly | bureaucracy] will tell the home-schooler what they must teach and will decide whether or not you are qualified to teach their own children, and it will decide what text and materials you may use. Ditto for the private school.

The cartel [monopoly | bureaucracy] dictates that I may not serve as an instructor of science or mathematics - except as a substitute on an emergency basis - despite my credentials because I have not had the appropriate courses in theort of education fluff, etc., yet I am qualified to teach in my academic field in any college you might care to name...including those dedicated to the training of teachers.

Ron, where you and I appear to agree is on the point that education cannot succeed if viewed as a field open only to those in the education establishment. For much of America when public schools started, it was viewed as a community function and the school was an expression of the community's commitment to education.

Schools are now more a necessary evil. For the parents a parking spot for kids while they work, for others just a big tax pit. Should the public attitude about schools change, i think the results will as well.

I think all residents should participate in all facets of the community, schools, government, and other institutions. When we do not, every part of the community suffers.

While I think it valuable that some among us get trained in educational theory and practices. But to engage that training with the skills and abilities of the rest of the population would greatly strengthen education. Even if someone can only contribute by repairing the structure or helping a teacher with tasks, that participation imbues the entire process with a spirit that is so sadly missing.

Ron, teacher certification is decided at the state level, not by the Department of Education. High school graduation requirements are also decided at the state level.

It sounds to me like your "Cartel" is actually Texas politics. Molly Ivins used to say that Texas was a research laboratory for bad government; I have no idea whether or not she was right.

But the problems you're describing are more state/local than federal.

Thank you Phil. My sentiments exactly. Every teacher I know and I know quite a few, didn't start teaching for the money, that's for sure. They are true dedicated teachers.
I was very involved with my daughter's schools. PTO president one year. (god that was horrible!)