Capitol Hill Blue Forums Political Issues Politics In General The Political Gender Gap:

Ardy, I say it's not a parallel because the people you're talking about chose their environment. I'm not concerned here with morality but with power. If I choose a morally questionable path, it is my choice. If I am subject to the effects of a morally questionable choice by others -- if I'm being judged by appearance rather than capability -- I am subject to someone else's power.


That's why I bother to talk to you about this stuff, Ardy. If I didn't think you "got it" to at least some extent, I wouldn't make the effort to converse (blunt, but true.) Again I think we sometimes suffer from the use of "you"; life would be easier if "one" could refer to one's actions without sounding a perfect arse.


And I hope I never gave you that idea, as it wasn't in mind at all. There is "how I think people see the world at a practical level" and "preserving that for one's own self-interest" - and those are very different things.

You could not have amplified my metaphor more effectively, Ardy.

In keeping with your response, I would suggest that it's high time we guys took more notice, and just as you encourage your beloved partner (pardon me for eschewing the "w" word) to choose shoes that are comfortable, we guys should be more accepting of all women making that choice, even if the comfortable shoes don't make their calves and hams look more attractive.

Funny, Steve! Was it Robin Williams who said lesbians were just "women in comfortable shoes?"

But let's take it one step further for a really revolutionary thought: I just bought a new pair of high-heeled shoes. I like high heels - when I feel like wearing them. Most of the time I wear comfortable shoes...but some days I like my 'pointy-toed, thin-soled, high-heeled girl shoes.*'

Why is this taking it a step further? Because I wear these shoes when it pleases me to do so. For my own pleasure.

I don't give much of a damn if the guys notice, or not.


(*thx to the Chenille Sisters)

Our sitting president?

Hummm
In that case, I guess what I am saying is that, for the most part, the most frequent and damaging impact of this society's appearance fetish/judgmentalism come from what some women project that others may be making.

Take yourself as an example Julia. From what you have written it sounds like you have pretty much freed yourself from "worrying" about how others may judge you. And I imagine that you have discovered that life for you goes on pretty well without enslaving yourself to this worry. And the situation you are in is a result of life choice that you have made... not because anyone previously had real power over you.

Certainly I acknowledge that appearance based discrimination is very real. What I am saying that such explicit discrimination is much less prevalent than the inner dialog where someone worries about what others will think of them... when the likely reality is that mostly other people are not so much thinking about them much at all.

Do most women buy designer clothes because of real discrimination if they do not? DO they starve themselves anorexic because of real discrimination?

I am saying that there is much stronger enslavement due to this sort of inner dialogue/wants/needs/preference as opposed to actual discrimination. And that enslavement due to an inner dialog is a power within ones self to control... just as you have done so for your own life ... as I understand it.

And, really, I think that is really a fundamental point I guess I am trying to make in these long discussions. That is to say that ... to the extent that there is a beauty industry that enslaves women... mostly women have the free choice to ignore this industry. Even if a woman should choose to wear make-up and nice clothing... there is a lot of cost effective product available that is outside the big expensive brand names. These brand names are definitely MARKETED to women. But women still have the choice of how they act. And... to the degree that statement is true... it does not effectively change the situation to complain about manipulation by the beauty industry when each woman herself retains the ultimate power. It just seems to me that education of girls is the most effective place to begin breaking this cycle. I know that is hard. But, for example, many parents decide not to have television in their house. That is also a "hard " decision... a decision that can have a real impact on isolating children from a lot of the manipulative materials their children might otherwise encounter.
I am just saying that in this society, mostly we are not subject to someone else's power. And to the extent that we are... that reality is mostly independent of the beauty industry and it's impact on people. Mostly you will not get a better job because you wear $500 shoes... or have plastic surgery. These are choices that people make on their own, not decisions foisted upon people by some irresistible external power.

If you did give a damn, would that be because these "guys" had real power over you... power that you could not reclaim at will?

Is the fact that you do not now give a damn a reflection of any change in the world other than your own value choices?

How have these guys whose opinion you no longer give a damn about been convinced to give up their power over you?

It's more a metaphor than anything else, but since you ask - I did at one time have a husband who felt my clothing and shoes were a direct reflection on him. He did have some power over me, yes, but because there have been changes in the world, when I called the police to have him removed from the premises (his attitude about minor things like shoes extended to much more menacing things), their power was stronger than his.

Thirty years ago they wouldn't have been so helpful. In some parts of town, they still aren't.

Of course the fact that I don't give a damn is reflective of changes in the world. As a nearly 50-year-old single woman, I do not have "snagging a husband" on my to-do list, because I can keep a roof over my own head and people are not always trying to fix me up. They understand that I've done the marriage thing, am not interested in doing it again, and they let me live my life.

Forty years ago? I don't think so.

An even better example:

When I was a young woman I worked for a software firm. All the female employees (programmers and systems people) were in one room, and the male employees referred to that room as "the gorilla pit." Why? Because the "gentlemen" in the firm didn't find those women attractive. Fortunately at the time I hired on space was not available in the "pit," so the new female employees invaded the guy space, and eventually the 'pit' became a thing of the past...but it took awhile.

Times have changed and I doubt very much that a name like "the gorilla pit" would be allowed now. But if you don't think that's a kind of power, you're fooling yourself.

Finally, to be honest, I don't think it's possible to "convince someone to give up power over you." People in power aren't inclined to do that. You have to make your own power, so that you can find or build an environment that has other values. And I've done my best to do that.

Julia
Thanks VERY much for sharing your story

Yes, well times have changed quite a lot. Among other things, I cannot imagine (since I lived through that time also) that a black man would have competitively run for president way back then... right?

And yes, times have move on as regards other issues as well. At that time, child abuse was rarely mentioned and seldom noticed. And at that time, spousal abuse was also seldom a topic.

Times have moved on. And it is not a disrespect of your story to request that we focus on the situation we face today.

I agree that people cannot be convinced to give up their power.
Given that reality, how would you propose we change the current situation to change this power equation?

And I agree that people have to make their own power. And what I proposed is that girls and young women should be actively schooled on doing so by their parents.

Let us suppose for a moment that you were now 21 years old, but even so had made the same life choices that have come to you through the years (dress the same way, have the same concern for your appearance) Do you think that would remove you from the marriage market? DO you think that would diminish your professional prospects?

Let me put the last, first.
I misunderstood. I thought your question referred to changes occurring over time. ("Is the fact that you do not now give a damn a reflection of any change in the world other than your own value choices?")

I will also state the obvious: A black man running competitively for president does not mean that racism is no longer a problem; improved response to child and spouse abuse does not mean that violence against women and children is no longer a problem. Things have improved – but these stories are not over and there is still some road to travel.

Which particular situation are you referring to?
I’ll assume you’re referring to the equality issue in a sort of general way. In that case I’ll give two answers.

Situations are changed when people work together. The “gorilla pit” reference didn’t go away because I didn’t like it; it went away because several of us didn’t like it, and we voiced our concerns as a group.

The second answer is that if Obama wins the election tomorrow, the face (and I use that word advisedly) of power in the US will change. I think it will have repercussions throughout our society, and I think it’s going to be very, very interesting.

First, if I were now 21 years old, many of those “life choices” would not have had to be dealt with at all, because many of my early choices have become the norm.
Second, nothing external can “remove” me from the marriage market. That’s my choice - and it’s a wonderful choice to be able to have.
Third – regarding professional prospects – I have always maintained my appearance at the professional level the job required. That means everything from jeans to a wool suit. I don’t think I understand this question.

Sorry I missed this earlier. I would agree with you – if these choices were made by adults. But they’re not made in adulthood – they’re made much earlier. And no, no one person is wielding the power - we all, as a society, as a culture, are wielding this particular club.

And because it hasn't gone away - may even be getting worse - feminism is as important now is it ever was, because the gender gap still needs to be bridged - in politics and elsewhere.


Here are a few web scraps. Please note that while I agree with the sections I’ve included, I don’t necessarily agree with everything in the articles. (Frankly I like the last one best.)

Regarding Halloween costumes:

This book excerpt talks about the early sexualization of both boys and girls – but interestingly, the influence on boys is about what they can do or see, while with this child, Hannah, the influence is about who she is and how she looks.

And this excellent article on why feminism is needed as much today as it was in the 1970’s:

And I think it's part of the political gender gap because, after all , the personal is political.