Capitol Hill Blue Forums Political Issues Finance, the economy & Economics Bailing out the auto industry - yes or no?

Okay, one last try.

Within the next, oh, four or five weeks, either the feds are going to cut a massive check for Detroit, or by the time of the next big car race, the lights in Detroit will be out.

This is not about the future, when we get everything developed. This is about a major industry in the US right now. There will be no innovation before the decision on this check will be made. In the words of some infamous SOB or other, "You bail out the auto industry you have, not the auto industry you wish you had."

So - without regard to the last few (okay, several) meandering pages - is it thumbs up, or thumbs down? Do they get the check, or not?

---My point is that the industry makes those solutions to serious problems through the type of testing that is done every day in racing.
No, I do not believe it is necessary for vehicles to achieve ridiculous speeds in everyday use.
The current crop of electric hybrids and electric vehicles in development by the major automakers do not employ the type of powertrains needed to achieve very high speeds and sports car performance.
The top speed of the Chevy Volt is somewhere in the neighborhood of 75 to 80 miles per hour. That's sufficient for a daily driver/standard transportation commuter vehicle, and what's more, the overwhelming majority of vehicles of this type, even the gas and diesel models, ARE ALREADY electronically limited to somewhere in the 100-105 mph range anyway.

And I emphasize once again that the day is coming where the majority of electric cars will use some sort of solar power as a primary charging source when garaged.
THAT IS a "virtually unlimited" source for all practical purposes.
Your opinion is more than valid. I am just afraid that it's also somewhat unrealistic. There's no way this or any other country will be able to SUCCESSFULLY legislate mankind's tendencies to push the envelope. They can try, but if they relegate most of their resources toward enforcement the result will be pretty much what we observed when the national speed limit was 55 mph.
It was a monumental failure and what's more it also contributed to the auto industry making crap instead of fine motor vehicles.

And you are CORRECT when you say "It's precisely because of that love of speed and power that the Big Three have been focused on everything BUT alternative energy".

But not because OF "the love of speed and power".
It's because they concentrated on the love of speed and power WITHOUT paying attention the concept of attaining speed and power via increased efficiency.
The two go hand in hand, no matter what one's politics or value system are, and no matter how you slice it.
Using brute, bone crushing force to create power is one way, but it's by far the worst way.
Making dramatic increases in efficiency is always the best way to create more useable power.
The best example I can provide is Ford's abortive attempt at making a ceramic engine block.
They didn't fail at creating one, they failed at bringing it to the market. A ceramic engine block weighs about a sixth what a steel or iron engine block weighs, and about a third what an aluminum block weighs. It is possible for an average person to PICK UP a ceramic engine block by themselves.
Imagine how much less power one would need to propel a car at terrific speeds if the engine only weighed about 175 pounds instead of 400 to 700 pounds.
Imagine how much less fuel that car would need.
We're not disagreeing...we're looking at solutions from opposite sides of the room.

And the folks who plod behind the mules still dream of adventures. Denying that is like cutting all the art and music out of the high school curriculum.
Many schools claim that they continue to place emphasis on English lit, mathematics and science, but they are disingenuous about their reasons for cutting out art and music.
They usually do that while KEEPING ATHLETICS programs FULLY FUNDED, or while INCREASING the sports curriculum
A famous educator once said that if we continue to cut art and music out of the curriculum, pretty soon no one would have anything to read or write about.

That sense of adventure is what drives achievement, even if the adventurer is behind a plow instead of steering a tall ship to the edge of the world.

And Columbus might have been after cash, but he could have gotten cash any number of ways. Ask a ship captain why they sail sometime. The answer is usually very enjoyable to listen to!

Regulating power and speed and legislating how people drive is what gives the world cars like this:


It's a Yugo, rated as possibly the WORST car on the planet.

---I happen to think conversations like this one ARE indeed part of the reason why the auto industry needs bailing out.
They don't HAVE these conversations very often.
THEY USED TO!

That is why someone at GM dreamt up the idea of an air cooled, rear engined lightweight coupe that was ahead of its time and every other car on the planet. It was a disaster once it cleared committee but the original design was spectacular.
Had the Corvair been allowed to be all it could be, without the meddling of GM's beancounters, it would have stood the industry on its ear.

It's also the reason why most cars now have fiberglass hoods and trunks too. After five decades of successfully made Corvettes the industry realized one day that since they already had sufficient reinforcement in the frame or unibody of the vehicles there was no reason to make hoods or trunks out of steel when fiberglass would serve to increase efficiency by reducing weight.
Another great idea from the race team.

Allow me to sell you that truck using NEW thinking:

That IS a humungous truck and it is definitely overkill for anyone unless they are towing a large trailer.

It's a surrogate penis on wheels and it is definitely compensating for something lacking...YES.

It also probably gets about fifteen miles per gallon with the stock engine.

It's a BIG HAIRY MACHO TRUCK.

QUESTION:
What's more macho than a diesel-electric locomotive?

ANSWER:
NOTHING.

A truck like that one, fitted with a small and efficient diesel which drives a nice fat generator which delivers power to four WHEELMOTORS would get about 40 to 50 miles per gallon because it would require about one quarter the horsepower and torque to do its job.

And if you sell it by portraying it as bearing the heritage of a diesel electric loco, the under endowed rednecks will sell their mothers down the river to get one.

500 kilowatts will pull anything you can hook a truck like that up to, guaranteed, and it doesn't have to put out 500 kw all the time either, just when it's doing the heavy work.
With nothing hooked up to the trailer hitch that truck would
out accelerate any conventional diesel only version with about
175 kw, and puttering down the highway it would only need about
80 kw.

Just give it something that makes a macho noise and it's a top seller.

Oh...almost forgot.

WHAT'S A "WHEELMOTOR"?

YouTube demonstration of wheelmotor technology.

Mitsubishi In Wheel Electric Motor.

Volvo's "Recharge" In Wheel Motor system.

And finally, an Austin Mini powered by wheelmotors.

But the wheelmotor concept isn't new.
It got its start decades ago in THESE:
100 ton quarry trucks, the biggest in the world, use WHEELMOTORS.

I thought I was pretty clear on that in my summation -

Yes, but only if it includes full production (there was talk of cutting it because it was so 'expensive') or even a requirement for increased development/production/promotion of the electric car.

If not, then let them go into bankruptcy, and possibly earmark part of the avoided cost by making sure the resulting unemployed get more help... perhaps guaranteed loans to a NEW electric car company that will hire those who lost their jobs.


Fat chance any of that will happen, but that's MY recommendation!

I've got the visual already - show it pulling an actual train!

Mellow darling, even though I am normally against bailouts I will vote "thumbs up"...with several reservations:

1) The industry MUST seek out and hire either Jonathan Goodwin or an equivalent, an inventor-genius-madman who is totally OUTSIDE the car culture of Detroit. They must be willing to implement his ideas WITHOUT subjecting them to the standard GM death by a thousand cuts.

2) Either Lee Iacocca or someone with his ambition and ethics MUST provide the blueprint by which the industry brings the bacon back home to the taxpayer the way that Chrysler did when they got their historic bailout in the 1980's, complete with the famous "if you can find a better built car, buy it" campaign.

3) The electric car...it is time and it is a requirement, an absolute MUST CARRY, and a bailout without a firm commitment is a deal breaker. The technology is here, and it's at the point where DVD burners and DVD set top recorders were just a few short years ago, very expensive.
Detroit needs to do for the electric car what Japan did for DVD, make it AFFORDABLE. The government can HELP, they MUST help.

4) Efficiency is the mantra. Speed and power through development of better efficiency is the only avenue through which "sex appeal" can be marketed. Stress the innovation and ingenuity that is uniquely American. Push it and push it hard.
Sell ingenuity and innovation as American pride.
That's right...where we once wrapped heavy iron and gas guzzling hedonism in the flag, we now must wrap mind boggling fuel economy combined with head turning performance.
It's not impossible...hey even the latest CORVETTE gets 25 mpg on the freeway when you keep your foot out of it, and that's a
FIVE HUNDRED HORSEPOWER CAR!

All four points are must carry and inattention to any of them are immediate deal breakers.

One last one...either the unions make concessions or the Big Three are allowed to go bankrupt and kick them out altogether.
Yes, it hurts a lot. Losing everything hurts more...pick your poison UAW.

I read that the unions already have made concessions... GM has been complaining a long time about their lack of competitiveness with the Japanese manufacturers, and apparently the negotiations have led to the position that as of next year, wages for both will be at approximate parity.

Can anyone confirm that?

I did find this , which indicates that with performance bonuses and 10% overtime, the assembler in the example makes $72,500 per year; and the tool&die maker would make over $83,000 per year.

Hmm.

In contrast, the average professional engineer starting salary is well under 60k, for the same (or more) hours. Even the medians range from 66k (health and safety engineers) to 98k (petroleum - heh); the median of the medians is $73,900.

Not sure what to make of it, but those are the numbers.

Everybody seems willing to bail out the automakers if, and only if, they adhere to a long set of rules and changes. I'm not saying any of it is wrong, I'm just saying it's not liable to happen. All the rules that is. The bailout probably will happen. I'm not against it, unemployment would take a massive jump if the auto makers shut down and the economy can't take many more hits.
No one is insisting that wall street makes any changes as they get passed trillions to stay in the business of creating wealth. Market proponents insisted that the market would police itself if the government just got out of the way and let it fly free. Wrong.
Either Wall street will see the error of its ways and make the necessary(self regulatory) corrections or it will burn through the money like a drug addict and then reach out for more more more more. Detroit is in the same mess but at least they create an actual product and employ people that make things. Tires, wires, spark plugs, light bulbs, lens covers, gears, axles, windshield wipers, lug nuts, fabric for the seats and carpets for the floors. Probably mostly imported though. Do they still make engine blocks in Detroit? From American Steel? What about all that sheet metal that's stamped into body parts? Those batteries for the electric cars, Where are those made?
Most likely Congress will bail out the Automakers, most likely none of the fancy and probably necessary changes will be a part of the deal. It's up to the marketing depts. to decide what is going to sell next year, to make the right number of them, and to turn a profit. How long could America survive without a single new car being built? Quite a while is my guess. How long could America survive without building a new car? Not so long I think. The bailout just like wall street, will probably be done wrong but it probably must be done.