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Dec 6th, 2017
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Joined: Sep 2005
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Sep 2005
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The more I look at this issue the more I think that this is not a bailout for the auto industry but a bailout for 1 company: GM. You've got to know when to hold them, and you've got to know when to fold them.... DaimlerChrysler was founded in 1998 when Mercedes-Benz manufacturer Daimler-Benz (1926-1998) of Stuttgart, Germany merged with the US-based Chrysler Corporation. The deal created a new entity, DaimlerChrysler. However, the buyout failed to produce the trans-Atlantic automotive powerhouse dealmakers had hoped for, and DaimlerChrysler announced on 14 May 2007 that it would sell Chrysler to Cerberus Capital Management of New York, a private equity firm that specializes in restructuring troubled companies, effectively unwinding the original transaction.[3] On October 4, 2007 a DaimlerChrysler Extraordinary Shareholders' Meeting approved the renaming of the company. From October 5, 2007, the company has been titled Daimler AG.[4] The US company adopted the name Chrysler LLC when the sale completed on 3 August 2007. And it doesn't hurt to know who the players are. Cerberus Capital Management, L.P. is one of the largest private equity investment firms in the United States. The firm is based in New York City, and run by 48-year-old financier Steve Feinberg. Former U.S. Vice President Dan Quayle has been a prominent Cerberus spokesperson and runs one of its international units.
…snip…
On October 19, 2006, John W. Snow, President George W. Bush's second United States Secretary of the Treasury, was named chairman of Cerberus.
… snip …
Financial Services - General Motors sold a 51% stake in its GMAC finance unit to an investor group led by Cerberus Capital Management in November 2006. GM expected to receive $14 billion over the next three years from the sale of General Motors Acceptance Corp. Yours, Issodhos
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 19,831 Likes: 180 |
That's funny Issodhos. I can't quite put that puzzle together but it looks a little shady.
Kap, if it was my own personal checkbook I wouldn't bail none of em out. Nobody's making any effort to bail my ass out.
I think what everybody is trying to do is just freakin stay alive for a few more months in the hopes that the economic logjam will break loose a little bit. I recognize that the automakers are huge employers though and they need to be kept functioning to prevent many many thousands more from filing for unemployment compensation which will in turn depress more markets and cause even more unemployment. Once a snowball effect gets going nothing will stop it til it gets to the bottom.
Good coffee, good weed, and time on my hands...
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Joined: Jul 2008
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That's funny Issodhos. I can't quite put that puzzle together but it looks a little shady.
Kap, if it was my own personal checkbook I wouldn't bail none of em out. Nobody's making any effort to bail my ass out.
I think what everybody is trying to do is just freakin stay alive for a few more months in the hopes that the economic logjam will break loose a little bit. I recognize that the automakers are huge employers though and they need to be kept functioning to prevent many many thousands more from filing for unemployment compensation which will in turn depress more markets and cause even more unemployment. Once a snowball effect gets going nothing will stop it til it gets to the bottom. Greger, the demand for US made cars is around 40% of the today's production. Layoffs will happen with and without the bailout. The diference is which people get laid off. Even with the layoff GM is going to close 10 plants next year. Ford will most likely match that number and Chrysler will declare bankruptcy if it doesn't get bought out by GM (Ford is smart enough not to get involved with that). Don't think that if this bailout passes jobs would be saved. They won't. In the end about the same number of jobs would be lost.
A gem cannot be polished without friction, nor a man perfected without trials. ~Chinese Proverb
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. ~Jon Hammond
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,581
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,581 |
I recognize that the automakers are huge employers though and they need to be kept functioning to prevent many many thousands more from filing for unemployment compensation which will in turn depress more markets and cause even more unemployment. I wonder if any of the requested "bail out" money will be used to prop up or expand GM overseas assembly plants? It is Congress, after all.;-) Yours, Issodhos
"When all has been said that can be said, and all has been done that can be done, there will be poetry";-) -- Issodhos
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 15,646
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 15,646 |
Good point, kap. And iss, thank for pointing out that the player betting on three of a kind really only has an ace in the hole and the rest is bluff. Phil I had to chuckle at the "dissenting opinion" from none other than Spencer Abraham. And I had to chuckle a bit at his logic as well: For the past decade, an average of roughly eight million vehicles made by General Motors, Ford and Chrysler have been sold annually. That translates into about $190 billion in auto financing each year. Given that the average life of an auto loan is two years, an estimated $350 billion to $400 billion worth of exposure is thrashing around our financial system. This is a man who needs no lessons in fuzzy math.
Steve Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love,
to respect and be kind to one another,
so that we may grow with peace in mind.
(Native American prayer)
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,177 Likes: 254
It's the Despair Quotient! Carpal Tunnel
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It's the Despair Quotient! Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,177 Likes: 254 |
So in essence all of you are betting against a Chinese buyout of GM's assets and betting FOR a Bush restructure of Chrysler?
I'd rather see GM owned by the Chinese.
We might as well get used to the idea.
Our asses were sold down the river to them starting with Clinton's furtive gestures and solidified forever with the Bush regime.
We ARE a colony of China right now, whether we believe it or not.
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,177 Likes: 254
It's the Despair Quotient! Carpal Tunnel
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It's the Despair Quotient! Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 17,177 Likes: 254 |
Just in case anyone thought I might be talking 100 percent out my butt..it's not QUITE 100 percent... Chinese SAIC might buy GM AND Chrysler.
"The Best of the Leon Russell Festivals" DVD
deepfreezefilms.com
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 268
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 268 |
I did find this , which indicates that with performance bonuses and 10% overtime, the assembler in the example makes $72,500 per year; and the tool&die maker would make over $83,000 per year. Hmm. In contrast, the average professional engineer starting salary is well under 60k, for the same (or more) hours. Even the medians range from 66k (health and safety engineers) to 98k (petroleum - heh); the median of the medians is $73,900. Isn't that kind of comparing apples to oranges? I mean, how many starting positions are there for tool and die makers at that salary level compared to starting positions for engineers at their corresponding salary level? And what is the comparative commitment in terms of training? Can a person get into the union as a tool and die maker right out of high school and make that kind of money? No you cannot become a journeyman tool and die maker in high school It is an 8000 hour apprenticeship with extra hours of schooling. It takes most apprentices 4 years to complete the training. The GM plant that I worked at did not hire in skilled trades. They trained people through their own apprentice program offered to assembly and machinists. To get into the training you needed to take a preliminary test and have higher seniority than anyone else wanting the position so a new hire could possibly get the training, if no older employees wanted it.
Last edited by Garden Toad; 11/25/08 02:09 AM.
Every true believer is someone else's heretic.
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 15,646
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 15,646 |
Thanks for the inside info, GT. I had a feeling it was a case of apples to oranges.
Steve Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love,
to respect and be kind to one another,
so that we may grow with peace in mind.
(Native American prayer)
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,004
member
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Joined: Feb 2006
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Thanks for the inside info, GT. I had a feeling it was a case of apples to oranges. ? Although I wasn't suggesting they were the same in the first place, from the 'insider' info it appears they are quite similar: a) 4 yrs apprenticeship, to be journeyman b) 4 yrs engineering school, to be engineer AFAIK, though, you only need 2 yrs apprentice and pass a test to be journeyman... 2 more years to be master?
Castigat Ridendo Mores
(laughter succeeds where lecturing fails)
"Those who will risk nothing, risk everything"
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