Originally Posted by Reality Bytes
Although I wasn't suggesting they were the same in the first place, from the 'insider' info it appears they are quite similar:

a) 4 yrs apprenticeship, to be journeyman
b) 4 yrs engineering school, to be engineer

AFAIK, though, you only need 2 yrs apprentice and pass a test to be journeyman... 2 more years to be master?
I take credit/blame for bringing up the question of similarity or difference. Now that we have a little more information, it's clear that you and I see the matter quite differently. You seem to think that they are "quite similar" based on the same information that leads me to believe they are "quite different"; i.e., going to college versus going to work.

Someone made the assertion earlier that "the only way to learn how to do something is by doing". What does an engineer fresh out of college know about doing the work of engineering, compared to what a tool and die maker knows about tool and die making after four years of on-the-job training?

The other part of the apples/oranges consideration that I brought up is that of population. How many engineering positions are available? How many UAW tool and die makers are making $83,000 a year?

The answer to the first question, according to the latest US Census, is about 730,000. I haven't found an answer to the second question yet, but according to the bureau of Labor Statistics, there were only a total of 101,000 tool and die maker positions in the entire country in 2006, and according to the State of Michigan,, the median wage was around $20 per hour. The average UAW tool and die maker's wages in 2002 were around $27 per hour, according to the Michigan website.

Clearly, then, the tool and die maker who brings in $83,000 per year is far from the "average".

Steve
Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love,
to respect and be kind to one another,
so that we may grow with peace in mind.
(Native American prayer)