Although I wasn't suggesting they were the same in the first place, from the 'insider' info it appears they are quite similar:
a) 4 yrs apprenticeship, to be journeyman
b) 4 yrs engineering school, to be engineer
AFAIK, though, you only need 2 yrs apprentice and pass a test to be journeyman... 2 more years to be master?
I take credit/blame for bringing up the question of similarity or difference. Now that we have a little more information, it's clear that you and I see the matter quite differently. You seem to think that they are "quite similar" based on the same information that leads me to believe they are "quite different"; i.e., going to college versus going to work.
Someone made the assertion earlier that "the only way to learn how to do something is by doing". What does an engineer fresh out of college know about doing the work of engineering, compared to what a tool and die maker knows about tool and die making after four years of on-the-job training?
The other part of the apples/oranges consideration that I brought up is that of population. How many engineering positions are available? How many UAW tool and die makers are making $83,000 a year?
The answer to the first question,
according to the latest US Census, is about 730,000. I haven't found an answer to the second question yet, but
according to the bureau of Labor Statistics, there were only a total of 101,000 tool and die maker positions in the entire country in 2006, and
according to the State of Michigan,, the median wage was around $20 per hour. The average UAW tool and die maker's wages in 2002 were around $27 per hour, according to the Michigan website.
Clearly, then, the tool and die maker who brings in $83,000 per year is far from the "average".
Actually, I brought up the comparison in wages simply because they were the only numbers I found related to the topic of this thread - those numbers are directly from the UAW contract negotiation documents. Whether THEIR number of 83k is closer to the lower or upper end, I did not know... which is why I asked.
In any event, you do bring up some further numbers that are very interesting.
First of all, though, the number of positions for tool&die maker of 101,000 is just one profession; from the
UAW's own numbers, the total is 180,681 in 2007. (and I'm sure there are many more in the entire U.S.)
How about wages? Well, again from the UAW's own figures, the "typical" (that's the word they used) assembler averages 27.81 per hr straight time; elsewhere they use an average 10% overtime figure, so that pegs their "typical" annual pay at $66,500 (before bonus); the "typical skilled-trades" UAW worker got 32.32 per hr straight time (according to the UAW), which yields $77,300 before the 2700/yr bonus.
Also, I ran across this, although the original article in the IndyStar is no longer available:
According to the Indianapolis Star:
Base wages average about $28 an hour. GM officials say the average reaches $39.68 an hour, including base pay, cost-of-living adjustments, night-shift premiums, overtime, holiday and vacation pay. Health-care, pension and other benefits average another $33.58 an hour, GM says. - September 26, 2007 UNITED AUTO WORKERS OFF THE JOB, Striking back at globalization. By Ted Evanoff
That's a LOT more than 83k per year, but then again those are GM's figures, likely somewhat inflated...
Still couldn't find "starting pay", but if it's $20/hr, that's $47,840 per year...
For engineers, on the other hand, the
starting salaries for engineers, 2007 range from $47,960 to $60,713...
Incidentally, back when I was in engineering school (1984), starting salaries were 30k-50k... just to keep up with inflation, they'd need to be 61k to 102k now... I have no idea what starting wages for UAW workers were in 1984, but engineers have definitely been losing
their race.
What am I trying to prove? Absolutely nothing! (I really don't know enough about the automotive industry...)
But, I've learned a few things... for one, I've learned that if I'd want to live comfortably, the skilled trades are far more financially rewarding then the engineering profession, on average (not to mention that after the 4 years of training each requires, the skilled tradesperson does not have a huge debt to pay off)
