Capitol Hill Blue Forums We shall overcome

Phew! I was trying to do several things at once, and all I could think was "I pissed Julia off, and I don't even know what I said".

I've done that too though, let's blame it on the system (I'm a database guy at work, and that excuse usually works ).

Despite RR being currently a hotbed of open minded, right thinking people, twas not always so. And, raise your hand if the conversations here about gay matters have been more frequent and provided more information than in other areas of your life. Not for all, i realize, but I venture for some at least.

If that were true, Prop 8 would have lost. The fight for 'gay rights' presses on...

Actually Jeffro is correct, Rick. The polls on this issue today are the highest numbers ever for equal rights to marry.

Rick, you mentioned that you thought RR is a bubble. I don't completely agree with that. If you read as many different sites as I do you will find many of the same discussions and the same ideas expressed. In the early days, even coming out anonymously online, seemed like an act of courage.

I remember a particularly foul troll on Yahoo! back in the late 90s, whose screen name was "lopshisarmsoff" (nice, huh?) He used to post the most disgusting gay bashing messages on every gay forum. He would post in explicit detail what he would do (or claimed to have done) to gays. It made me physically ill. He would be banned and then pop up again with another alias (all with the word "lops" in the name - he was really into dismemberment fantasies, apparently). There were straight people on many of the forums that were there to ask sincere questions. I would engage people, then lops would show up and the whole thing would degenerate into horror. Today, lops would not last very long anywhere, and it wouldn't be just gays driving him out. A lot of times I'll see an anti-gay themed thread somewhere and think "I better jump on here" only to find that there are already dozens of defensive posts from self-proclaimed straight people.

Despite the (narrow) passage of Prop 8 and a lot of ugly rhetoric out there, gays are not the social pariahs we once were (even 10 years ago).

The 1988 Republican National Convention was a nightmare if you were a gay American. I watched that year with my father and couldn't believe the openly hateful speeches from Pat Robertson and Pat Buchanan. To a young gay man, they were calling for all but my death on a National platform. That convention could not exist today without major criticism.

Today, people are up in arms that both Biden and Obama said they did not support gay marriage but supported equal rights for gays and lesbians. I see that as progress. We were even included in Obama's acceptance speech. Clinton was the first time in my life I remember hearing anything positive toward gay people from the President (of course The DOMA and DADT were both implemented under Clinton, so... take that for what it's worth). The point is that we really are much more accepted now than ever in my life. We are embraced and supported by our straight friends and family members and defended more strongly than ever before and not just here on RR, but most everywhere I look. Prop 8 was a disaster, but it has really opened up the dialog on a National level and probably for the first time in my life, there is more vocal support than I've heard before on any gay issue.

The people who still hate and bash gays are dinosaurs, they will be on the wrong side of history. The people who supported Prop 6 thirty years ago were wrong and they are STILL wrong AND they are using the same arguments that were not true then and still aren't today.

Trust me, things really are a LOT better than they used to be.

I, for one, have really benefited from this conversation, beginning to end, and learned a lot from everyone involved.

...it doesn't matter what the poll numbers are today - poll numbers only counted on November 4th - and we lost. Str8 people said "No!" to Gay Marriage in California.

We now have to wait until the Courts rectify that vote - once again.

So why was Prop 8 voted in then?

Do you think the population identified in the Mercury News study has time to spend all day discussing hoity-toity ideas on the 'Net?

No. They're working their two, three jobs to earn less than $40K a year and raising their four, five, six children because "biological events happen."

...and when they finally put the kids to bed and the sit on their porches and discuss with their like neighbors the events of the day - they all agree that homosexuality is deviant and to vote Yes on Prop 8 - plus their pastors/fathers told them to...

Yeah...well...you know... (I've never won a Mr. Congeniality Award )

College is accessable to all young people - in California.

My parents never went to college. I did. My parents never paid one penny for me to attend - and I still have the Citibank loan to show for my efforts.

There are loans and grants and scholarships out there - there's no excuse not to obtain a higher education - unless one is dumb and get someone preggers and then have to support three people on a minimum wage job or stupid to rob some place or senseless enough to murder someone and end up in prison.

Rick, I am glad to see you getting worked up about this, it heartens me. I believe you have previously described yourself as one who doesn't make a point of being gay unless it seems appropriate in the setting. Catch me if I am wrong.

Maybe it is the heat you feel now that will lead all of us to talk to more people, even in situations we may not have previously, so we make sure that more of those hard working straight people get to know how truly fabulous we gay people really are; that they have nothing to fear regarding us and that we really are after all is said and done, humans just like them.

Again, glad to see you fired up.