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Joined: May 2006
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If they don't take government money, yes. But if they accept any federal support (I'm not sure about state) -- all bets are off and all sorts of regulations come into effect.


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Originally Posted by Mellowicious
If they don't take government money, yes. But if they accept any federal support (I'm not sure about state) -- all bets are off and all sorts of regulations come into effect.

So if I start my own business and don't take government money I can discriminate?


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Originally Posted by kap17
Originally Posted by Mellowicious
It's a not-for-profit organization, kap. Yes, they charge a fee, but (at least in theory) that's only to cover operating expenses.

(We won't talk about endowments...)

So then the question is: can a non-profit organization descriminate?

No, the issue is not whether they make a profit or are a 501(c)(3) organization. From the court opinion:
Quote
“An organization is not excluded from the scope of Civil Code section 51 simply because it is nonprofit.

And further
Quote
The California Attorney General has opined that, under Curran, the admission decisions of a private religious school are not subject to the Unruh Act. (81 Ops.Cal.Atty.Gen. 189 (1998).) His opinion states: “[A] private nonprofit religious school has as its ‘overall purpose and function’ the education of children in keeping with its religious beliefs. The ‘inculcation of a specific set of values,’ with programs ‘designed to teach the moral principles to which the [school] subscribes,’ prevents such a school from being considered a ‘business establishment’ whose student admission practices would be subject to the Act.” (Id. at p. 195, fn. omitted.) We agree.
Plaintiffs argue that the School, like the country club in Warfield, engages in business transactions with the general public. They note that it sells tickets to football games and other sporting events; at these sporting events, it sells concessions, T-shirts, and “spirit items”; it holds fund-raising auctions and golf tournaments; and it sells advertising space in yearbooks. Nevertheless, unlike the nonmember transactions in Warfield — but like the nonmember transactions in Curran — these transactions “do not involve the sale of access to the basic activities or services offered by the organization.”

[snip

Plaintiffs argue that the School is a business because it charges students for its educational services. However, both Warfield and Curran focused on business transactions with nonmembers. It seems implicit in both opinions that an otherwise private organization can engage in some business transactions with members without the risk of becoming a “business enterprise” for purposes of the Unruh Act. After all, even a private organization must have some source of funding for “the basic activities or services” that it offers. As long as this funding comes from members, it should not matter whether it is called a tithe, dues, fees, tuition, or something else.
The full opinion is available here scroll down to see Jane Doe v. Cal. Lutheran H.S. Asso. 1/26/09 CA4/2


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Sorry. Missed that one, and I knew better. Thanks for the correction, Phil.


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Wow.
Interesting.
Thanks for the education on this.



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The letter of the law might or might not be in question.
The SPIRIT of the law is not..NOT as it applies to the original intent of the people filing the lawsuit.

What WAS the spirit of the law as it applies to the original plaintiffs? This is not a legal question, it's a human one.

My bet is that the plaintiffs sought to force the religious institution to accept their lesbian relationship.

Stupid. Just plain stupid.
If you attend a school run by a religious institution you are bound to adhere to the religious philosophies set forth by the religion and in the case of this institution one of them happens to be that their Big Guy frowns upon homosexual relationships be they gay or lesbian or whatever.
I suspect that their Big Guy also frowns upon too much of a bond relationship of the heterosexual type as well, within the confines of the educational campus and religious sanctuary.

Basically what we have here is a dismissal for breach of good conduct, whether or not said breach of conduct was named or addressed in the legal proceedings. The girls sought to force the church to accept them as lesbian students at the church school and the church school's position was
"No EFFING WAY not in a thousand years, go to another school!"

Yeah...pretty much.
Sounds logical to me.
Even though I happen to believe that homosexuals, be they gay or lesbian, should be afforded the same rights and liberties as anyone else, they should NOT be allowed to force a church to modify their religious philosophy.

The moment you legislate the right to force a church, or a church school, to modify their religious philosophy, you open the door to your OWN church being forced to do the same.

And no one wants that, not here, not anywhere else.
It wouldn't be pretty.


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Originally Posted by Checkerboard Strangler
The letter of the law might or might not be in question.
The SPIRIT of the law is not..NOT as it applies to the original intent of the people filing the lawsuit.

What WAS the spirit of the law as it applies to the original plaintiffs? This is not a legal question, it's a human one.

My bet is that the plaintiffs sought to force the religious institution to accept their lesbian relationship.

Stupid. Just plain stupid.
If you attend a school run by a religious institution you are bound to adhere to the religious philosophies set forth by the religion and in the case of this institution one of them happens to be that their Big Guy frowns upon homosexual relationships be they gay or lesbian or whatever.
I suspect that their Big Guy also frowns upon too much of a bond relationship of the heterosexual type as well, within the confines of the educational campus and religious sanctuary.

Basically what we have here is a dismissal for breach of good conduct, whether or not said breach of conduct was named or addressed in the legal proceedings. The girls sought to force the church to accept them as lesbian students at the church school and the church school's position was
"No EFFING WAY not in a thousand years, go to another school!"

Yeah...pretty much.
Sounds logical to me.
Even though I happen to believe that homosexuals, be they gay or lesbian, should be afforded the same rights and liberties as anyone else, they should NOT be allowed to force a church to modify their religious philosophy.

The moment you legislate the right to force a church, or a church school, to modify their religious philosophy, you open the door to your OWN church being forced to do the same.

And no one wants that, not here, not anywhere else.
It wouldn't be pretty.

I agree with you 100% only if these "religious businesses" would pay their damn taxes. Until then they should not discriminate at all.


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What we really have here is a direct conflict between fundamental rights guaranteed by the Constitution - on the one hand the 1st Amendment's guarantee against state interference with religion (and tangentially, freedom of association) against the individual right to freedom from discrimination based upon an inappropriate criteria (sexual orientation). These are the toughest of cases to determine. Leaving aside the tax-exempt status of the organization (an issue that I agree with Kap is nonsensical, but already the subject of another thread), this is a religious school and the criteria is being applied to students who freely accepted (or at least risked accepting) the doctrines of the church/school when seeking attendance.

This is different, I think, from the issue of employment by the school. Also, if this were a public school, the result should be different (unless you draw a right-wing District Court Judge Lesbian student loses lawsuit - LA Times, 2007).


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Originally Posted by Phil Hoskins
For me, if the school is a religious institution they should be able to discriminate, as stupid as that is.


Why?

I've read the whole thread and can probably figure out your reasoning from what other postings said, but 'splain it to me anyway, please. If it's too far afield, I'll be happy with a PM, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that religions can discriminate--even legally.

Last edited by humphreysmar; 01/29/09 08:52 PM.

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Martha, religions can discriminate because the Constitution guarantees that they will be free from government intervention in their affairs. Specifically in this case, they claim a religious belief that prohibits gays from attending their schools. That belief is protected from government telling the school what it should or should not do about it.

If government could enforce laws against this kind of discrimination on a religious institution, then government would be interfering with a religious belief.

So as much as I think religion is perverse, as much as I favor equal treatment, I also favor the Constitutional protection.


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