Looks like the expansion of the Empire has reached a full boil and we’re gunna find of a few things in the next coupla weeks.
Not sure how stone cold thrr red Libs are feeling about taking it next level with hypersonic middles pointed straight into high NATO’s back yard. As our ruling classes seem ‘agreement incapable’ and no letter of response has come from our side, we see things moving along certain tracks, though I’m not sure anyone has a handle on it.

A very good assessment of the current situation:

“The Russia-US-NATO-OSCE meetings this week have come and gone. The Russian verdict was succinctly delivered by Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs Sergei Ryabkov, who explained even before the OSCE session was over that the talks have come to “a dead end” and it was unlikely the Russians will participate in any follow-on talks.

This opens the question to what comes next.”

I invite you to place your bets

If I was going to lay money, I’m not sure where I’d land. I would say that the Russian government is extremely tired of getting the arse from the west, the US in particular but has, up till now, shown good diplomacy and restraint, considering all out state and spook hijinks since 92’. I think they are resolved in the matter and who can blame em? Who would appreciate their weapons systems and military units on our borders?

I’d say the situation is moving along the early predictive lines of Doctorow‘s with respect to:

“ So what comes next? In successive articles on this website, I have set out several scenarios, or algorithms. My most recent prognosis in yesterday’s piece was that Putin’s Plan B would likely be purely “military-technical” in the sense of roll-out of medium range nuclear capable missiles in Kaliningrad and Belarus, to place all of Europe under threat of attack with ultra-short warning times, such as Moscow finds unacceptable coming from U.S.-NATO encirclement of its territory.”

It’s been stated these trains are headed west…

Swipe left to see more

All an incredibly stupid waste of money that Russia could use to improve things a lot for their citizens. Likewise an incredibly stupid waste of money the US spends on "nuclear superiority". When you consider that ANY sufficiently nuclear-armed country could destroy all human life by merely detonating 100 nukes on their own territory, 5000 nuke arsenals, ICBMs, long-range bombers, nuclear-armed submarines, etc. are all idiotic.

They are just a bunch of frustrated old men waggling their droopy bits at each other.

Russia’s military spending can’t be compared to ours in terms of quantity and quality.

Our military is so larded up with procurement contracting, we’re muscle bound, limited to air bombardments in underdeveloped countries, Russia’s appears to be robustly rebuilt around a realty of fighting a modern land war.

They’ve also developed nuclear superiority, having first strike capability with hypersonic weapons systems. Systems we haven’t achieved yet.

Maybe it’s old men exposing their junk to one another. Maybe not. The expansion of our empire up to their border is real though.

First strike capability doesn't matter. We die on January 1st. They die by June 1st, and their deaths take way longer, and are much more painful. NOT a winning strategy.

We know what we would do if somebody put nukes on our border. Remember when Russia tried that with Cuba? We didn't like it and almost went to war over it. The only thing that saved either of us was a Russian who refused to start it.

Now, about money. Putin is, I think I read, one of the richest persons in the entire world. I think that's just a given. I have also read that he bailed out Trump for about 4 billion. Money is, basically, there and he has larger thoughts. He wants the old Soviet Union back. His problem, now, is that he is no longer Popular Putin but something else entirely. His other problem is that, I think, he really doesn't know it. I also think that anybody who would try to speak truth to Putin might have a little problem just staying alive.

Anyway, it seems to me that, now, most of Europe, the United States, etc. are determined to en-cage Putin's Russia and he isn't buying it. We didn't when that happened to us and its happening to him on a much grander scale. I also believe he has no compunctions about going Nuclear.

My solution is to wishfully think somebody is going to figure it all out and we will not have a Nuclear war which is a lot easier than trying to jam my head into the sand.

Definitely looks like military technical

Russia reveals it is discussing a joint naval exercise with Iran and China

A pretty good summary of the current diplomatic situation between the US, NATO and Russia. At times, I wish I had terrestrial TV to see if/how the tensions are being spun. Prepping the public thru propaganda should suggest the direction of US intentions. My guess is the ‘Russia’s gunna invade any day now to steal Ukraine’ will get spun as its likely to keep the weapons procurement humming along. Russia doesn’t appear to want the basket case called Ukraine. A mafia state like most of the empires peripheral vassal states are.

From the Foriegn Affairs:

“ Of course, it is an open question whether the Biden administration is willing to engage seriously with Russia. Opposition to any deal will be high in the United States because of domestic political polarization and the fact that striking a deal with Putin opens the Biden administration to criticism that it is caving to an autocrat. Opposition will also be high in Europe, where leaders will feel that a negotiated settlement between Washington and Moscow leaves them on the sidelines. “


What Putin Really Wants in Ukraine

Judging from Bidens covid presser last week, it should be obvious the mans a talking seat warmer and is not capable of directing the state developments. My only question is who is on the US’s behalf?

Show of hands….
Who remembers Scott Ritter? The guy who called BS on the tools at State and War in the run up to the invasion of Iraq under the lies of WMD’s.
Here’s an assessment of his on the current stand off. Likely to be equally ignored but no less credible as his Iraq assessments were:

“As for the American threats, Russia has given its response—any effort to sanction Russia would result, as Putin told Biden last month, in a “complete rupture of relations” between Russia and those countries attempting sanctions. One need not be a student of history to comprehend that the next logical step following a “complete rupture of relations” between two parties that are at loggerheads over matters pertaining to existential threats to the national security of one or both is not the peaceful resumption of relations, but war.

There is no mealy-mouthed posturing by Foggy Bottom peacocks taking place in Moscow, but rather a cold, hard, statement of fact—ignore Russia’s demands at you own peril. The U.S., it seems, believes that the worst-case scenario is one where Russia invades Ukraine, only to wilt under the sustained pressure of economic sanctions and military threats.”

What War With Russia Would Look Like

Guess we’re gunna find out if he’s right again.

Like the Panama Papers, the Pandora Papers lists where Putty's ill-gotten asserts are. He better shut his big mouth or those assets will be seized. The poor little fella (Putin ia a 5'7" dwarf) and at 69 years old is still still butthurt that his precious evil empire Soviet Union busted up nearly 30 years ago. The poor little sad clown is trying to humpty dumpty it all back together again.

Geting emotional help for his butthurt would be a better use of Putin' time.

‘Butt hurt’, ‘evil empire’, ‘sad little clown’?
Oddly, I find him a more than a capable statesman who’s steered his country back from the U.S. led chaos of the 90’s and early O’s.
But it’s no longer the 90’s and both countries are further along in their trajectories. Whereas Russia’s economy is much improved and has insulated itself from our economic threats, we’ve continued the process of copper stripping, degradation and entropy. A pretty impressive feat in just one generations time. On both sides.

A follow on assessment from Ritter on Blinkens meeting with Lavrov in Geneva:

“ The toolbox is empty. Russia knows this. Biden knows this. Blinken knows this. CNN knows this. The only ones who aren’t aware of this are the American people.

The consequences of a U.S. rejection of Russia’s demands will more than likely be war.

If you think the American people are ready to bear the burden of a war with Russia, think again.”

UKRAINE CRISIS: US ‘Toolboxes’ Are Empty

Did you see the mapping analysis of both the Panama papers and Pandora papers Rick? Funny how there was hardly anybody in the US or UK? Odd that….

War between the US and Russia would very quickly result in the death of every American and every Russian, as well as 99.999% of the human race. Nobody is that stupid. So this is all bluff, on both sides.

Actually, war between the UK and Russia would have the same result.
War between France and Russia would have the same result.
War between Israel and Russia would have the same result.
War between India and Russia would have the same result.
War between Pakistan and Russia would have the same result.

Nuclear war between any two countries would have the same result.

Yes. Most people are aware of nuclear winter.
Some people are also aware of wars starting without intention. Raising the chances for a miscalculation in a created adversary, Russia, that has possession of hypersonic missiles as well as short and medium range conventional and nuclear warheads arrayed in a tense geographic area with limited assessment and response times, may prove to be conditions leading to an accidental conflict brought on by a misread of the room.

We’re not talking bombing brown people in the third world anymore.

So Russia just broke off more of the Crimea without firing a shot. Not a bad outcome really. Who wants to live with fascism aided by our right wing government?
Still, it will be interesting to watch the daily 10 minutes of hate propaganda from the neoliberals in power. All the bogus ‘Russia’s going to invade on Friday between the hours of 10-2pm’ was replaced with ‘our steely gaze and iron resolve, backed up by threats of sanctions, stayed the Ivan’s hand’ now looks like so much more idiocy and incompetence by our right wing political classes. My guess will be promotions all around as the usual result. There’s little downside to effing up in the PMC political party these days.

We did sell a ton of weapons to neo-nazis so there’s that. Nordstream is kaput for now, so there’s another (sorry bout yer luck Europe!). Not a total loss for some, but the fascist seem to have suffered a set back.

Does anybody recognize the Euromaidan, aka the Revolution of Dignity, as factor in all of this?
Ukrainians did this...not kontrakniki, not a counter-Wagner group, not astroturf organizations, not "crisis actors"...ordinary Ukrainians.

Ukraine REJECTED the continuing influence of Mother Russia, and they succeeded in removing Viktor Yanukovich, and their action was ratified by the Ukrainian Rada. (legislative branch)

Putin's response, as of yesterday?
He called Ukraine "a puppet of the United States".
So remind me again, who is the aggressor in all of this?
Because right now I seem to hear echoes of some rhetoric from 1990, when another despot declared Kuwait a puppet of the US and
voiced his declaration of Kuwait as the "19th province of Iraq".

The member states of NATO are:

Albania, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Montenegro, Netherlands, North Macedonia, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom, United States.



Putin first took power in 1999. He's had since 1999 to make decisions on his view of Ukraine's sovereignty, thus I find it interesting that he waited until AFTER the Ukrainian people made their feelings known in 2013, some fourteen years later, to make the decision to invade some NINE years after Euromaidan. Soviet tanks rolled into Prague only seven months after the Prague Spring commenced.
I get the sense that Putin still thinks Donald Trump is going to help him out, maybe with another putsch attempt here in Yankee Land.

My money is on war.

Not nuclear war, but war.

The kind where soldiers travel across the world to kill other soldiers and global economies come tumbling down.

Real global politics has been taking place while the USA is engaged in partisan squabbling.

Real military spending has been taking place while the US spends all its money on corporate contractors and appears incapable of fighting a war.

My guess is that Putin is about to show America what a real fascist looks like.

Our wars have only been about a jobs program or for oil for the last seventy some odd years.
Anyone who thinks our adventures in theaters of war were about anything else is only fooling themselves, because as you already know, they weren't even actual wars.
No formal declaration of war by Congress means it's something other than a war.
And that's because formal declarations of war make things messy for "certain industries" that depend upon a steady revenue stream free of commensurate responsibilities.
Formal declarations of war also make lawmakers much more responsible for when victory turns to stalemate or defeat.

War is good business and we've proved that adage for more than a generation.
Putin is not engaging in endless war for business, this is costing him directly...there's no profit motive, there is only the gamble and the risk. His profit comes from the permanent taking of territory. Our own industries are the ones indirectly profiting from his warmaking more than he is unless his gamble pays off.
Russian drones shot down over Ukraine were full of Western parts. (WaPo)
His oligarch friends don't get their big payday unless he does.
He HAS to have a solid and clear plan for decisive and absolute victory. We do not...as proven by the fact that we stretched out TWO wars for twenty years with NO actual end game.
We just finally went home when we wore out our welcome in the host countries.
But when we DID finally go home, a lot of people had bursting pockets from all the money they made.
The last polka that Russia played was in Afghanistan and when they went home in defeat it ultimately cost them their country.

For a pretty good contextual view you could do worse than Mearsheimer:

[video:youtube][/video]

I’m case the YouTube link is still broken-

Putin fascist? Gunna disagree with that though NPR, MSNBC and the rest of the usual suspects have been framing him this way since 2016. Last I looked, we’ve killed well over a million people since the 90’s, including the literal shortening of the average Russian lifespan.

No, liberal hegemony had quite the butchers bill and, due to its contradictions,
much the same as neoliberal economics, seems to rely on more and more authoritarian execution. Bringing ‘mockracy’ to people at gunpoint was always murderous and doomed to failure. I expect backing fascist, as we did in the maidan revolution (so much different in its composition than the earlier Orange Revolution) will be a loser.

S’funny how we always back the fascist abroad but believe ourselves somehow not, well, fascist…

And we might be very close to losing our country right now.

But not to worry...the oligarchs will have pockets bursting with money while the peasants starve.

In Russia, in Europe, and even here at home. Perhaps we can become a part of the hellscape that we've turned other countries into to make our oligarchs ever richer.

So Doctorow’s ‘military technical’ turns out to have been accurate. It’s often useful to read from those that have a track record.

I kind of wonder if Putin will survive this. He may be the richest man in Russia, but he's not the only person with a lot of money or power there. If Russia's financial isolation gets too painful for some, somebody might just decide they prefer Russia not being at war. I think he's miscalculated how much this will cost, versus what he will gain.

I suspect the Trumptards cheering Putin on will never live it down when the horror of war goes on the internet.

I suspect the Russian people understand fully what is at stake having a rapacious murderous empire rolling up to its borders.

They’ve also had the lived experience of having their country asset stripped from the Harvard boys of the 90’s.

They may also have a collective memory of WW2, having lost over 20 million to defeat the Nazis. Makes our supporting neonazis on their border a bit awkward.

Conversely, liberals only have their Emanuel Goldstein style propoganda to get them thru their political incompetence and failure. Not much of a solid footing to start a war with but here we are. Look no further than the product of that politics occupant in the white house to manage their ship of state. It’s quit possible the ruling class oligarchs in this country will wonder why our economy will be put in a tailspin for a country having no strategic interest beyond employment opportunities for the politically connected.

I have found liberals quit comfortable with the horrors of war being unleashed by them over the decades. I suspect they will be ok with the Russophobia redbaiting propaganda that has helped lead to this current crises. It’s a rightwing liberal in the White House with the same rightwing liberals and neocons at state. Rightwing liberal majorities in Congress.

Deflecting this current failure of theirs on ‘trumptards’ looks to be the order of the day going forward then?

Caught Putin’s speech last night live on Jazeera. As usual, very measured and concise. Very lawyerly, building a case like an opening argument.

Some key takeaways were the historical references, the lack of trust for anything the US has to say and the Kosovo incursion of NATO forces as a legal precedent.

Surreal going over to the UN Security Council meeting, chaired by Russia currently, and watching the Ukraine ambassador addressing the council, just having gotten Putin’s speech summary and Vid on his cell phone. The exchange between him and Russia’s rep Nebenzya was funny though the situation is deadly serious.

Mearsheimer Looks to be correct and Nebenzya appeared to me to sound like someone ‘who’s been led down the primrose path’.

Putins to-do list was also played out so far. I admit, I thought they would use air and artillery for the most part and would be surprised if the try and occupy the hostile regions of Ukraine. Worth listening to in full without the Langley editorializing.

My guess will the creation of a buffer state composed of Crimea, Lugansk and Donbass with whatever other eastern regions that will want to join in. The US and NATO can have at the rest of the dysfunctional remains now flooded with guns and fascist. Work for CIA MI6 and Blackwater no doubt.

Not hinted at by Putin but you have to wonder, would cracking up NATO over this Ukraine farce not be a welcome outcome. Not immediately but over time? It will surely occur to many what a hollowed out institution it has now become. A few helicopters from Italy and APC’s in Poland.

This does seem to be a turning point.

Turning points are often good, even if millions die.

Dunno Gregor. In my experience, things often get worse but they’re gunna do what their gunna do. What’s unsettling is who we got in the drivers seat. Oddly, I have more confidence in Russian strategic actions than I do this countries current crop.
We are definitely moving into a multipolar world again. Gunna get bumpy is my guess.

Is it Chicken Kee-evvve? Or Chicken Keeve?

En serio…

It’s just as I thought… it helps if you smile a little bit as you say it.

Domo arigato!

A good long form conversation with Scott Ritter on the current situation and history leading up to it.




YouTube link doesn’t work again but a good conversation with Ritter and Dan Cohen. Worth looking for

I think it will be getting pronounces chicken putineska for awhile

It looks as though the sanctions are rippling through an already shaky Russian economy.

Do you reckon Vlad Putin has bit off more than he can chew...?

A lot of what was said up top hasn't aged well, particularly the praise for Putin's "well measured" steaming pile of straw & revisionist crap.
Ukraine is not part of Russia, and was only part of the USSR because they welded everything shut with the Iron Curtain.
Irregardless, I guarantee you Ukrainians don't feel like Russians now.

When the USSR collapsed the Ruble went to nearly 3000 to the dollar, in the last couple of days it went from 80/per dollar to
(right now Mon Feb 28 2022 03:48 PM) 106/per dollar.
Maybe when it sinks to something like five or six hundred to the dollar it might spur action by the people, because at that point
even Putin's praetorian guards won't have much fight in them anymore.

Yes, Putin has bitten off more than he can chew. He's moments away from being at war with 30 countries instead of one,
and if he tries following up on his nuke bluffs we may see another fifty or a hundred countries offering to apply to NATO.
Hell, NATO might have to change its name to accommodate a bunch that big...like maybe "The World Alliance Against Putin". (TWAAP)

I dunno, do you think Putin can successfully vanquish a hundred countries?
With pretty much the whole world against Putin, how is he going to get himself out of the mess he's created?
Ukraine's ambassador to the UN had a helpful suggestion this morning.

https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1498329367730077708

China is with Russia. India abstained from the UNSC vote. That’s a lot of people.

I don’t like one country invading another country any more than I assume you don’t Jeff. Though to be honest I don’t really know if your that opposed when the US does it but this is what it looks like from the other side.

You were a pretty strong Russiagater, IIRC, so I doubt there will be much context or history coming from your camp. More willing propaganda echoing I’m guessing.

Putin’s not a nice guy. Neither are our ruling classes. Can’t help but wonder what we would do having Russian ‘advisors’ and military bases on our borders. Oh wait, Cuba….

Anyhow, like it, hate it, it’s going down and we’re pumping as many arms into the situation making a dangerous situation even more dangerous. I think we should finally start taking Putin at his word and start acting smart. Doubtful from what I can see coming from the state and it’s propaganda organs and now you.

Here’s a wild interview from an expat with Max Blumrnthal. Interesting to hear from someone walking the walk. Not saying I agree with everything he’s saying but I believe he’s serious about his truth. Good to hear from all sides sorta thing….

Oh, Russell "Texas" Bentley?
Is that your guy?

https://twitter.com/borzou/status/1498393087952961541

He says he's gonna help the Russians "de-Nazify Ukraine"? 🤣🤣🤣
Funny how fascists seem to like calling everyone else Nazis, even Jews.

By the way, a little background on yer boy:

'I will return to the USA in a tank to free the Americans'


---So Volodomir Zelensky, a Jew, was .... what? Elected by a majority of "neo-Nazis and Russophobes"?
I think I'll be waiting a very long time to see all these Ukrainian nazis.

The funniest part is how he describes himself as a communist.
How does a communist reconcile the fact that his host nation not only hasn't been communist since 1991 but is now actively seeking to install global fascism?
I think it's more likely that he's just found a new gig that keeps him safe from the US Marshalls who have a price on his head after he was convicted of drug trafficking
in his home state.
Now, if he was just some big time pot dealer, I don't care all that much because .... well...it's just pot.
But it still amazes me how dumb this guy can be to fall in line with fascist dictatorship...while dubbing himself a communist.
Talk about useful idiots...

To quote social media...
"So... proud texan native and extremely rabid communist russell bentley is fighting with a donbass regiment in ukraine in support of putin's army. this is who the @gop and @foxnews supports. it's not capitalism. it's power and authoritarianism. it's anti-american."

--So okay, you're obviously in love with Vlad and all his fascist friends, thanks for making that clear, oh and...good luck to your boy over there, I guess he hopes
those Jewish Ukrainian nazis don't find him before we do.

That's just stupid, Jeff. I don't think the most leftist member of this forum is exactly in love with Putin.

Bur neither is he required to love the Democratic Party. Let's try to stick to the discussion and avoid personal attacks.

That's a personal attack but labeling me as a "pretty strong Russia-gater" isn't?
And I would like to offer the idea that just saying you're left is meaningless, it's not a one dimensional monolith, and there are plenty on the Left who
are fond of an accelerationist value system that leaves us with zero direction at all...other than "taking Putin at his word", which we apparently DID between 2016 and 2020 already.

If you believe Tex Bentley is a hero and Max Blumenthal knows what's best for America, then you're cheering for Putin, simple as that.
Look, the above interview is with a guy who calls himself a communist while embedded with a bunch of state fascists.
Communism promotes the idea of a classless society and when Putin surrounds himself with a bunch of billionaire oil oligarchs and mobsters, that's pretty much the
polar opposite ergo Russia isn't communist, and people who call themselves communists but strap on a rifle and embed themselves with the Russian Army and align with Putin are just morons who never knew what communism was and don't know that they're fascists now.

If personal attacks consists of me stating my opinion that someone is demonstrating an alliance with Putin, then I guess I'll have to just be the bad guy.
I never said anyone has to love the Democratic Party either, but thank you.

Is there anything that I said in my response that isn't true?
If anything it's a textbook example of The Horseshoe Theory in action.
I'm just not so far left that I've hooked all the way around and circled back through the Far Right, that's all.

You can't surround yourself with a bunch of billionaire oligarchs and promote same and then pretend to want the old Soviet Union back.
I mean, you certainly CAN, but it's not going to BE any kind of "soviet" union, because billionaire oligarchs aren't fond of classless societies and
worker paradises run by the proles and back door black market corruption on the street with them not getting the lion's share of the cut every time.
Viktor who fills up cars from his jerry can black market gasoline isn't interested in handing over 80 of his 100 ruble check to Lukoil's main enforcer
every night, and Sergey who just wanted some gas for his Lada doesn't want to get roughed up for wanting to not stand in line for eight hours.

What Putin really wants has everything to do with Soviet style military expansionism but on its face, it's bound to look and feel a lot more
like the old Imperial Russian Empire, with Vlad as the tsar. A tsar does not run for reelection, you know.
A tsar doesn't even have to massage the rules to pretend he did get elected with 99% of the vote and all opposition jailed or killed.
A tsar is just the tsar and until he dies, he OWNS the country, all its resources and everyone in it.

A tsar is royalty and when you cling to the old Russian Orthodox Church, you're naming yourself as Russian royalty.
None of that classless society nonsense.
He has more military muscle than the USSR ever dreamed of, and that's really all the "soviet" he wants.

Left leaning classless societies? I think Putin thinks that's a big fat joke. He likes absolute monarchy for himself better and
state fascism for the proles.

This part right here Jeffery....


It's bullshit. And you were very much wrapped up in Russiagate and there are rants to prove it. It was a hot topic in its day.

Just try to act like a gentleman, eh? Save the drama for the other forums.

#1, define what "Russiagate" actually is.
I'm of the opinion that Russia contributed an awful lot of help to get Trump elected.
I'm also of the opinion that Trump is and always was considered Putin's ace in the hole.
Disproven? I don't think so.
What else falls under Russiagate? Show us some of those rants.
I think you're attempting to hold one person to a higher standard than everyone else who expended effort to find out
exactly how far up Trump's ass Putin was.

#2, again, if I am the bad guy for expressing an opinion that someone loves Vlad, then I'm the bad guy.
I'm comfortable with that and apparently so are the sources referenced in Chunk's post.
But go ahead and label that a personal attack if you like.

Came across this nugget recently:

“ With tripolar politics — liberals, conservatives, left — each pole converts tripolarity into a binary. Liberals think conservatives and the left are one thing, conservatives think liberals and the left are one thing, and the left thinks conservatives and liberals are one thing.”

Here’s Amy Goodman’s interview with one of our last ambassadors to the Soviet Union, Jack Matlock,
giving some historical context to the current crises and how we shoulder much of the blame:



If you care to go deeper into the history of this region, here’s a couple of offerings but they take some time to get thru.

Max Blumenthal, from the Grey Zone, with a deep interview of Alfred de Zara’s, an international legal scholar, on the roots of the current crises. It meanders a bit and de Zara goes on a bit with his resume but it is interesting and informative, IMO. He has no trouble talking about the fascist and neo-nazi elements in the Ukraine, though it’s brief:



If you just want an audio rundown, Trueanon has done a a real deep dive on it with Mark Ames from the popular ‘Radio War Nerd’ podcast. I believe he worked at ‘the Exile’ with Matt Tiabbi and Yasha Levin. A front row seat to the fun corrupt smash and grab of the Yeltsin family years. Much more history here of the Galacians, Banderstans and nazi pedigree up to the current day thats given the breakaway so much murderous grief. Brace Beldon was the Anarchist who fought in Rojova and has settled into a pretty successful podcast career doing deep dives into corruption with his co-host Liz Franek. Ames lived in Ukraine as well if I remember right.



Speaking of Yasha Levine, here’s another interview with his perspective as a Russian journalist with friends and family living in both countries. He was living and writing in LA until recently

Russian-Ukrainian Immigrant Yasha Levine On The Avoidable Crisis



Some very different people with different takes. Maidan was an American coup undertaken by ultra nationalist (aka fascists) and Nuland looks implicated. We broke our promises to not move NATO beyond reunited Germany. We’ve broken those promises.

Ok, nuff. Tough guy Biden, who’s not corrupt and his son really knows his hydrocarbons and that board seat was absolutely legit and not corrupt, has just come on to BS Americans. Sad part is, he’ll probably succeed. Propaganda works.

Here’s a brief article reprinted at journalist John Helmer’s web site ‘Dances with Bears’. Helmer is the longest serving independent journalist in Moscow if I’m remembering right. Once served the Carter administration. Anywho, it does a quick job of describing the military and naval bases that have been built up by the US and NATO in Ukraine making it, more or less, a defactoid NATO military base with a Russian invasion posture. It also mentions Zelensky’s shooting off at the mouth about having atomics staged in Ukraine at the security meeting in Munich on Feb 19. I’m persuaded that it was that announcement plus our refusal to offer any security guarantees nor negotiate with Russia in the run up to Munich that was the catalyst to invasion.

OPERATION BARBAROSSA IN SLOW MOTIO...PREPARING IN THE UKRAINE UNTIL LAST WEEK

I don’t get terrestrial or cable corporate news. Does anyone know if they’re covering these extremely important issues? The build up of military bases, refusal to grant security guarantees or the broken promises we’ve made to Russia since the end of the USSR?
Or is it more Emanuel Goldstein style hate fest, like the run up to our invasions of Iraq, Syria, Libya, Panama, Nicaragua etc etc etc?

If corporate media is ignoring these important issues and doing pop psychology of Putin or wild speculations of his motives, unconnected to real world disagreements and activities, that’s propaganda.

If you willingly repeat and amplify those phony messages, your doing propaganda, wittingly or not. Russiagating is a major example.

Nope. Just trying to keep conversations civil and I shouldn't have to moderate and argue about moderation with our administrator.

As far as your opinions about other posters here, please keep them to yourself and stick with facts.

Looks like the head of Ukraine denazification just bombed a Holocaust memorial site.


"Just now, a powerful barrage is underway. A missile hit the place where Babyn Yar memorial complex is located! Once again, these barbarians are murdering the victims of (the) Holocaust," Andriy Yermak, Zelenskyy's chief of staff, wrote in a tweet.

https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1498697538085568514

Pretending that Far Right nationalists are the dominant force in Ukraine politics is a stretch.

Congress of Ukrainian Nationalists


Yeah, sounds like somebody's messaging is a little twisted.
I'm sure if you scratch the surface of any Eastern European country you'll find Far Right nationalists and nazi wannabes, because one doesn't even need to scratch over here, they're right on the surface...wearing big bright red hats that say MAGA.

But we're supposed to believe that Trump's bailout buddy Putin is a denazifier, yeah right.
Sorry but if we're supposed to accept the notion that Ukraine is a new Far Right Nazi state, I don't think an adequate case is made here.

Ukrainians fighting against Russia’s “de-nazification”.

https://twitter.com/michaeldweiss/status/1499002756073496577

Ukraine had one of the largest Jewish populations in the world. Most of them were extinguished in Russian pogroms and Nazi camps. Now they fight.

--And let us please not forget that "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", a fabricated antisemitic text purporting to describe a Jewish plan for global domination,
was first published in Russia in 1903, translated into multiple languages, and disseminated internationally in the early part of the 20th century, and played a key part in popularizing belief in an international Jewish conspiracy.

If Ukraine's Far Right militias are a growing issue, then so is the Far Right militia presence in our own military, as evidenced by Charlottesville and January 6th.
Ukraine may need to do a lot of work on this for admittance to EU.

But I will continue to label statements about Russian de-nazification as nothing more than Trump style projection AND deflection...a shiny thing to distract attention
away from the fact that Russia, and United Russia in particular, is the new mecca of fascist ideology.

But it's only "new AGAIN", as evidenced by The Protocols and its impact as perhaps the single greatest force amplifier on antisemitism the world has ever known.

There are fascist elements in the Ukraine and have been on the LOC since 2015. They have been doing the dirty work happily there and have contributed to the 10k+ casualties in the Donbass.

Many of their groups have been incorporated into government national guard units. Many, though, are not and still fight at the LOC as independant paramilitary units. They have been dying the black and red strip ‘blood and soil’ flag. They’ve been playing a support role for the Ukraine military for awhile now.

They have a political component as well, having attained offices in the government and domestic police forces. As I understand it, they punch above their political weight by using intimidation of violence. Theres a track record here if you care to look at the record.

I’m not touching the elders of Zion your bringing into the discussion. The far right is not interested as much in the Jewish problem as it has with the Russian speaking Ukrainians. Hence the outlawing of the language, changing street names, etc..

This is a huge issue of the civil war there. The far right coup carried out with our assistance. Talkin about the Maidan ‘revolution’. You realize, don’t you Jeff, that Amerika always backs the far right when we meddle with the internal politics of client states? Zelensky’s election was a large protest against that coup.

He ran on a platform of having better relations with Russia as well as lowering the tension with the breakaway, Russian aligned, republics. Why he had a sudden break and started hollering for NATO inclusion and getting nukes is beyond my level of understanding. A deal he couldn’t refuse would be my guess. Ritter had some ideas in my previously posted interview video.

There’s going to be a lot of things bombed, tragically. I have no idea why you think s holocaust memorial getting destroyed proves anything. A good deal of images we’re seeing on social media as well as corporate news are turning out to be fakes. It’s authenticity aside, you realize it’s possible that far right nationalist have different goals and resentments indifferent parts of the world? I don’t think my understanding is twisted as much as your oversimplifying.

The fascist element is legitimate but not the only concern that Russia has at this point. They have been speaking loudly and plainly and, right up to their invasion, warning us- eff around and find out!’ With regard to the red line they articulated in the security proposal. A proposal we failed to credibly negotiate over.

One has to wonder why?

No, one doesn't.

It's always, always, always about the money.

Except when it's just about the power.

I feel very bad for the Ukrainians but Vlad Putin is gambling on some good old-time conquest working while the world is weakened by multiple and complex problems. Many of which he helped orchestrate.

Ukraine is reporting 7000 Russian troops have been killed. This ain't gonna be a cakewalk.

---I'm aware of the record and also aware of "punching above their weight"...more on that later.


Yeah well, that's your choice but I am, because it's the main reason why antisemitism has continued to grow AND flourish, throughout the twentieth century AND this one.
Qanon is indirectly related to the same type of blood libel, even if disparate Qanon splinter groups don't push the jew-hating side, the nuts and bolts of how it works are interchangeable and that's a convenient bonus for the folks who fund Qanon.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/93bgxd/qanon-russia-putin

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/19/politics/qanon-russia-china-amplification/index.html

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...y-theories-researchers-say-idUSKBN25K13T


I see, so "fake news" and "false flags", right?

Look, the entire free world has decided that they aren't interested in Putin's arguments, or his justifications.
Meanwhile, I'll wait while you dig up the proof that everything (or most everything) we're seeing about the Russian invasion is fake, but you're still going to have to convince the rest of the free world, and the mountain of banks and corporations who have decided to get behind squeezing the life out of the Russian economy.

I kinda have my doubts that trillions of dollars worth of corporate power want to fall in line for the sheer fun of it, because we've already seen what "our corporate overlords" are capable of doing when they DON'T like or DON'T believe something.
That's why tobacco is still legal and weed is just barely so, that's why the CDC isn't allowed to release gun death figures, that's why screeching CRT!! CRT!! CRT!! can get hundreds of teachers fired, that's why a lot of what working people desperately need is denied to them year in and year out.

But suddenly hundreds of well heeled financial interests and nearly every country in the West are giving Putin the thumbs down because of some vast conspiracy, I guess?
Is it "the deep state?"

PS: Uh oh, Trump has suddenly decided that Russia's invasion of Ukraine is a holocaust.

Now what? Is that fake news, too?

Oh look, here's thousands of crisis actors outside a Ukrainian nuclear power plant, creating fake news and fake images for Joe Daddy Biden.

https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1499058187072331782

I'm not sure what your even talking about anymore Jeff.

Are you saying the invasion of Ukraine has something to do with antisemitism and the 'Elders of Zion' with an assist from Qanon? Dude....


Yeah, its weird about a lot of the images getting posted up on social media being attributed to ongoing events in the Ukraine are not from the Ukraine.. I think it was Wired or Gizmodo or something like them that did a dive on how it's sparked a lot of people passing off images. A weird side to humanity I suppose. Metadata was telling on many of them. It was picked up and run in some cases by our infotainment programs and run. Sadly, what passes for news these days... I think Jimmy Dore did a bit on this recently. Again, I really don't care if your re-post was real or not. It was an odd line of argument, to me.

No, not all images are faked obviously. Conversely, some were quite real and poorly vetted like the armed Ukranian grandma PR stunt of the Azov battalion.

Anyhow, maybe in another thread we can discuss the U.S.'s history of backing fascists paramilitaries if it would make this most recent U.S. misadventure more understandable. Hell I posted on Obama's giving support to these organizations years ago as well as stationing troops and tanks in Poland up to the Russian border. You may not have given it any band width then. Don't no why your having trouble with it now.

Heck Dems sure dont:

Congress Has Removed a Ban on Funding Neo-Nazis From Its Year-End Spending Bill



This conflict has more dimensions than the Maidan coup, Nazi paramilitaries (though 10k dead from those groups is nothing to ignore) or pipelines.

Doctorow had an interesting conversation on Belarus yesterday. Interesting perspective.

Right.
Mumble mumble something Obama did, mumble mumble something Jimmy Dore did, but in the end the US is the bad guy for backing Ukraine
and we should have just let Putin do as he pleases, you know, because oil and the Jews, or is it the Ukrainian nazis, and not the Jews.

Yeah Chunk, the entire free world is wrong and everyone's faking it, and Paul Ryan and John Boehner are innocent because it's those goddam Dems who ramrodded
the bill through Congress with the Nazi protections all baked in...no one else in Congress had a thing to do with it, just the Dems.

And Putin's really just a peace loving guy, savvy too, and if we'd just left him alone and ignored those nasty protesters at Euromaidan, Putin
never would have done a thing.

Dude, what’s wrong with you?

Did I say Putin’s a peace loving guy? Are we?

The rest of your post just sounds unhinged.

Sorry but I have to laugh, you can't seem to find a single thing right about anything the entire free world is doing.
You present your case as a fan of Putin, he's a great statesman, and then when anyone mocks that assessment you claim they're unhinged.
Maybe I should have included an emoji.

If your position had any merit whatsoever, don't you think one democratic country, just one, would be on your side?
Truth be told, if we dig back far enough, going back way way before Biden, Trump, Obama, we still have Putin making statements like this:

I don't hear a lot of Ukrainians agreeing, except for the Russian minority in those breakaway areas in the East.

You aren't the first person to blame Putin's moves on NATO expansion, but a contrary view states that applications from new countries willing to join NATO were driven primarily by Russian's behavior in Chechnya, Transnitria, Abkhazia, the Yanayev putsch as well as calls to restore USSR in its previous borders by prominent Russian politicians.

1995 LA Times:

BALTIC STATES: Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were forcibly annexed by the Soviet Union in 1940 and did not regain independence until 1991. Since then, the countries have squabbled with Moscow over Russian troop withdrawals and Russian minorities.
POLAND: Warsaw has had strained relations with Moscow since the collapse of the Warsaw Pact. Eager to join NATO but aware of the shadow Russia casts, it has been difficult for Poland to balance westward leanings with eastward realities.
CZECH REPUBLIC: Reforms in Czechoslovakia were put down in 1968 when Soviet tanks rolled into Prague. Since splitting from Slovakia in 1993, Czechs have had no common border with the former Soviet Union and are on the fast track to Western integration.

It would be interesting to hear any of the above states issue comments about wanting a return to the old Soviet sphere of influence and control.
One would think there'd be an immense roar of approval at this point.
Or maybe they decided to join the West because they prefer the values of the West.

I realize that by calling me unhinged**, you can try to make a case for why the West is wrong on everything, and paint me as a constant cheerleader who thinks everything we do or have ever done is perfect and unimpeachable. That would be convenient.
I just don't want to watch my children wind up living in a fascist world where Putin is calling the shots, that's pretty much it.

I don't live or work in Ukraine so I cannot fix their nascent neo-Nazi issues, but I suspect that they are a reflection of a growing neo-Nazi movement around the world.
Are Democrats funding those movements? Is Biden funding them? Did Obama fund them?
Or could it be folks like Putin and his admirers in the Republican Party and their oligarch friends in ALEC?

I guess all those moves are invisible or undetectable to some people.

By the way, are there any reports of scads of Ukrainian neo-Nazis being rounded up?
Where can I see them?

Oh...one more thing:
Is the United States also responsible for Holodomor?

Yeah, I’m going with Mearsheimer with respect to balance of power and buffer states with NATO expansion. NATO is a military alliance who’s gone from a strictly defensive posture to an offensive one since Kosovo. Do you remember all that talk about disbanding NATO after the Soviet breakup? The big peace dividend that never materialized. That’s the problem with making a market. We didn’t have to let them into NATO. Rightly or wrongly, Russia views those expansions as a threat. Russia has a lot of nuclear warheads. Does it make sense to try and needlessly antagonize a nuclear power?

Will you have any problems having Russian troops on our Mexican border? Russian navel military navel bases in British Columbia? Have we gotten rid of the Monroe Doctrine?

Wether one loves Putin or hates him, you would hope we would be smart dealing with Russia but all I see is escalation. Escalating up to the possibility of nuclear exchange. Smarter brains than you and me have warned against NATO expansion eastward. McKennan had been brought up for one. Matlock mentions this as well. I’m taking their view. Does that make me a Putin Lover?

The Azov battalion is currently surrounded around Mariupol. Russian forces knocked out Ukraine army communications early making coordination very difficult. I believe the only route out of the encirclement was within range of forces from the north and south. Encirclement may have been completed today. Haven’t checked. There’s over a dozen battalions and will be very difficult for Russian forces to separate out who will be spared s and who won’t.

Yes, every administration I can think of has supported right wing fascist dictators, paramilitaries, juntas etc. that included Obama. I think he stopped funding Ukraines when he got wind of them, to his extremely small credit. Biden, Carter, Clinton and all the Republican administrations as well. I think there was some move on congress’s part to defund right wing death squads in Central America back in the Reagan administration. Some show trials followed that one but no one was really punished for it.

We’ve killed over a million innocent people in the Middle East, North Africa and the ongoing genocide were assisting an extremely right wing regime with in Yemen. Heck, we just left a country in devastation and absconded with their wealth.

But yes Jeff, Putin’s the real bad man. It’s wrong and unmerican to bring up our atrocities or mention how it might cause other nations to get nervous bringing up our military alliance to its borders. Might make them jumpy and angry and cause them to react. Putin bad! Got it. America good! Right…

I largely see this Ukraine invasion as a tragedy. Just one in a long line of tragedies that our government has had a hand in stretching back as far as I care to look.

Figures this ⬆⬆⬆ is all you got out of my responses, so it's clear that you read (or don't read) what I say because your mind is already made up.
But if you insist on boiling it down to the cardboard subway token you already minted before I even woke up, here's my response.

Is the USA responsible for Holodomor?
You seem to have skipped that.

I get a lot of personal beef out of your posts mainly.

I’m glad to see you don’t like your posts reduced to oversimplification.

Yeah, I know of the starvation. And?

Now you're a victim?
Just answer the question.

No Jeff, the us didn’t cause the starvation in the Ukraine back in the depression. And?

Not a victim. Just letting you know it’s starting to feel like your taking my views personally. If your not my mistake.

Maybe not running around calling me unhinged might help.
Maybe not continually making everything about ME might help.

RE: Holodomor
It wasn't the Depression, it was Soviet pogroms.

If we're going to dig back into history twenty, thirty or even forty years, let's just go all the way back sixty or seventy years.
At the sixty year mark we get to revisit what it was like for Germany when the Soviet Union was not only ON their doorstep,
they even had their largest major city split right down the middle and only accessible by a heavily guarded access highway INTO East Germany.
But ohhhh, I guess that doesn't count, only the imaginary spectre of Russians massing on the Mexican border...that counts.

Like I said already, I have simple needs...I just don't want to live in a fascist world where Putin calls the shots, and I don't want my kids to either.
That is personal. Having two parents who are immigrants who fled state fascism is personal. One of them being a German Jewish refugee is personal.

NATO was formed, AND MAINTAINED for some very good reasons.
I may not always agree with ALL NATO expansionist ideas but if a former Warsaw Pact nation overthrew its Soviet backed leader, the way Jaruzelski
was overthrown by the Polish, Kremlin complaints about mean old USA are moot. The Polish people spoke, they endured eighteen months of brutal
punishment and refused to be moved.
Like the Kremlin was going to suddenly change their minds with some tanks?

But hey, go back to making this about "America good, Putin bad!".

Wait… what does your German Jewish parents, the iron curtain, NATO expansion into Poland or your fears of having a kid grow up in a fascist state have to do with Starvation in the Ukraine in the 1930’s?

And how does that starvation of the 30’s impact the current crises?

POGROMS, starvation due to POGROMS...these so called "Russian brothers" were subjected to purely political POGROMS.
They didn't starve because of The Great Depression, they starved due to rejection of outside aid, confiscation of all household foodstuffs and restriction of population movement.

It impacts your endeavor to paint the USA as the cause of Russian invasion of Ukraine, which you and the expats you admire seem to agree on.
You listed a half dozen FP moves we made that you think are the reason peace-loving fascist Putin pulled the trigger on stomping Ukraine.
That's what it impacts, I want to know how far you think our blame goes, that impact right there.

Ukrainians don't want to be a client state of Putin's Russia, simple as that.
The Russian speaking Ukrainians in those two breakaway districts might want to be but the majority do not.
And if you ask them their opinion of Putin's assertion that Ukraine was always part of Russia, they take a dim view of that, too.
And by the way it may interest you that despising Putin's assertion that Ukraine is Russia, the hatred of that viewpoint is actually
something shared by a wide range of Ukrainians INCLUDING (YES!) those Azov boiz...it's pretty much across the board, or spectrum.

And when I hear Putin giving the reason for his war as "we're denazifying Ukraine" I actually hear "mumble mumble The Struggle against Kurkul Influence in Collective Farms".
Here's a fun fact:
Areas depopulated by the Holodomor famine were resettled by Russians in the Zaporizhzhya, Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts, but not as much so in central Ukraine.
Things that make you go Hmmmmmm.

One could almost say that the very ROOT events that BEGAN all the division of Ukrainian and "Russianized" Ukrainians stretch ALL the WAY BACK TO Holodomor.


But that might be inconvenient for your YouTube buddies to admit to.

Look, if you can't remember what smartass remark of yours I am replying to, maybe don't make so many smartass remarks and that way you won't have to keep track of them when I am forced to respond to them.
If you're going to whine about it sounding personal, I am obligated to explain what actually IS personal.
Putin's fascism feels personal to me.
Listening to someone whitewash his bloody reputation by saying he's an acomplished statesman is personal.

It had nothing to do with the Holodomor, it has to do with my family's experiences with fascism.
I hate fascists. It is personal, but one of your devices when someone isn't impressed with your barrage of hour long YouTube lectures is to
deflect into a game.
Is it that difficult to follow a train of thought about parents and fascism?
Yeah, I don't think so.

‘Your you tube buddies’

Ok. Whatever.

It’s a good point I have no problem with you bringing up. I’m sure it adds to the tensions. Though theirs debate about it being a genocide or botched industrialization transition. Others have pointed out that EVERY society making the shift to industrial capitalism winds up killing a an eff ton of people during the transition. I’m not taking a side in the debate but pointing out its there. Regardless, I have no problem seeing an Eastern European country full of grudges from the Soviet era as well as before. Yugoslavia comes to mind. Cripes, they were stirred up by their rulers with grievances going back centuries, as I recall. I’ve watched election grievances of certain classes get warped and distort their perceptions and realities.

But basically, if you don’t like my criticism of US foreign policy over the last several decades, so what? Arguments still stands. Expanding the NATO military alliance right up to Russia’s border makes no geopolitical sense. Has the potential to start something even worse than the Ukraine famine if we’re not careful. I don’t see us having been careful. Ditto with the current tense.

Russia’s claims of Denazification was not the sole reason for invading but It didn’t hurt. While you hear mumble mumble it is a fact that right wing paramilitaries have been sniping and shelling those breakaways since Maidan. Azov and Right Guard among them. I could easily see neonazis seizing on grievances from the past to dehumanize an entire group.
.

So answer my question..

You would have no problems with Putin military and naval bases and hundreds of troops on the Canadian or Mexican borders?

I’m sorry Jeff. I didn’t know realize this is about your feelings. How could anyone else have an opinion or view without having your life’s experience. Especially as it concerns everyone on the planet where nukes are concerned.

Nah really, eff your feelings. We all got skin in the game here and your drama doesn’t really do much one way or the other for the outcome. You don’t like an argument I’m making? Fine. Make a better one. Stop hiding behind your parents history to snipe at me. You got a problem with me saying Putin’s an accomplished politician? Boo hoo. Get over it. Up until invading, he was.

Cripes! Making this geopolitical situation about your feelings. Only you Jeff.

Your criticism of US foreign policy is actually the best thing about this thread.
I don't agree with everything you say but you're clearly well informed and you're hitting most of the notes that I remember, when going back decades.
We've done some incredibly repugnant shiite to a lot of folks who didn't have it coming to them.


That actually forces me to do something I should have done several posts back before things got tense.
Yes, I am guilty of contributing at least half of that.
But allow me to try and simplify.

If Putin wins, democracy loses.
If Putin wins AND CONTINUES his goal of a rebranded Imperial Russian Empire, democracy loses again.
If our own "Friends of Putin Party" win in November, democracy loses.
At that point we DO GET
"Putin military and naval bases and hundreds of troops on the Canadian or Mexican borders" ... we get them big time.

Want to watch democracy die? Stay tuned.
Yeah, eff my family, eff my feelings, eff everyone who has family history with fascism and eff THEIR feelings.
Get ready for a lot of "effing" on that score, because if Putin wins, we lose.
We lose democracy.

Is it worth anything to you? To anyone?

That's my entire argument, --->>>> Putin wins, bye bye democracy.

What are your plans in a post-democracy world ruled by a global cabal of fascist elites?

I seriously doubt you or anyone could prove that the only people shelling those breakaways are the neo-Nazis.
And that's because it's simply not the case.
War has always made strange bedfellows. In fact, WW2 it was the entire free world PLUS the Soviets and truth be told, the Russian advance on Berlin ended it a lot sooner.
Trouble is, to the victor go the spoils and they wasted no time in divvying up Berlin and half of Germany.

So, Russia versus Ukraine, Ukraine's majority apparently looks the other way because a bunch of nationalistic neo-Nazis want to fight, and fight hard.
And you're right, in the end that must feel personal to Vladimir Putin, but in a wag the dog response he's making it look and sound like "only those horrible Nazis" are
doing all the shelling and fighting and that's simply not the case unless one is blind and deaf and unable to recognize the fact that Ukrainians elected a jew to lead them.
So yeah, to some extent it IS "mumble mumble" because Putin's the one reducing it to mumble mumble, the same way Trump reduces Democrats to "mumble mumble damn Commies".
Sorry but you're incorrect, Putin IS MAKING it sound as if denazification IS the real reason..."the nazis have corrupted Ukraine so that it is no longer part of Russia, which it always has been."
That's what Russians hear, that's what they're being told.

And when it comes to seizing on grievances from the past to dehumanize an entire group, that's what Holodomor was all about, despite your attempts to minimize it.
The fact that a bunch of neo-Nazis chose to use that history as justification for their attempt to erase the HOLODOMOR-DRIVEN ethnic cleansing of millions of Ukrainians is just an example of how rhetorical flourishes act as unifying battle cries is academic.
Even if most Ukrainians aren't fond of neo-Nazis, in the end they're going to let them fight if they are fighting the Russians.

Here is an example of how that might play out in America:

Suppose fascism DOES win here...and the retooled DoD decides it's time to "neutralize all those communists in California" by sending several large battalions to Los Angeles.
Will Angelenos rise up and try to kill off the Bloods, Crips, 18th Street and White Fence gangs if they signal their willingness to fight the Pentagon Fascists?

I doubt it.
That doesn't mean Los Angeles is run by the Bloods and Crips, does it?
Does it mean that L.A. is all Bloods and Crips?
Trump would IMMEDIATELY declare that he's just wiping out those communist street gangs "that run California" and he'd waste no time labeling Angelenos as such to the rest of the country, to his deplorables.

You down with that, homie?

I don’t mind arguing with you Jeff. I do mind your taking it personally. Al families have pasts.

Your argument of ‘Putin wins, democracy loses’ smacks of jingoism to my ear. It also seems like maximizing the stakes. We are in a literal situation where nuclear exchange is on the table and everything seems to be pushing for s maximalist posture.

I’m extremely angry at the armchair soldiering going on with your side of the aisle. (I hate both political factions, as you know). The enthusiasm of flooding a conflict zone with lethal weapons to hurt an adversary largely of our own making. It’s going to lead to many more deaths for soldiers and civilians alike. Knowing you don’t care for him, I’ll recommend Matt Tiabbis latest piece he felt he had to write as he felt the need to defend himself from accusations of being a ‘Putin lover’. He describes his front row seat of our foreign policy smoothing the sheets for Pitin in order to shift Yeltsin out is informative. He had journalist friends killed during that time. I like getting unvarnished reporting, I assume you do too. I recall we both appreciated Bill Mauldin.

I think Putin is an autocrat that was our autocrat until he wasn’t.

My old man’s dad came over from Italy in the 30’s. Hard to get work in northern Italy as a trade unionist at that time. I remember as a teenager reading reports about our man in Chile taking shop stewards off the floors for helicopter rides and disappearing thousands of leftists. You may not recall it, but I think I mentioned growing up in a union household. My dad was a shop steward. I share a burning hatred for fascism too. I see the Clintons and the corporate Dems being the worst enemies of labor and the working class of this country. They got more done as Dems to destroy labor. I don’t believe in the binary that’s being peddled in corporate media when it comes to this current situation. Just as I don’t believe the false binary of our two political factions in this country. Russian POW’s, as I recall, were liquidated by Nazis right along with polish Jews. There’s disturbing history in western Ukraine with regard to the Jews there as well as Poland.

Again, we’re escalating at a murderous level in a deadly dangerous situation that could all have been avoided with negotiating a security treaty with Russia.

We have no Democracy. We have stagecraft. Something you and I should know something about, having worked in entertainment.

--And yet in the end, IF Putin wins, democracy loses, whatever we have of it that remains.
I do not know your personal definition of what democracy should look like, but I think we can both agree that having unfettered access to the vote is perhaps the most
important thing we are losing right now thanks to our own lawmakers and their addiction to money and power, but in the end, we would lose ALL of it that still remains.
We're at 11:30 PM on a hypothetical clock where midnight transforms us into a fully managed fake democracy where we get to vote all we like just as long as we vote "YES" on a ballot consisting of Fascist #1, Fascist #2, or Mild Fascist #3, and such voting would likely be mandatory and few would dare to vote "NO".
Want to help that along?
I don't and I guess if that sounds jingoistic, so be it.
Talking about jingoism works both ways, you know.
What we now know as The Party of Trump has spent the last decade and a half telling its faithful that "democracy is awful, horrible, terrible, two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner, mob rule, free bread and circuses, the Founding Fathers HATED democracy (yet somehow accidentally leaving voting as a sacred constitutional right) and that America has never BEEN a democracy....it's a republic...yada yada yada."

The jingoistic part is where they attack democracy saying that they are fighting for the survival and preservation of the republic.


Yes, to the point where you will cheerfully burn all of it down without any concern for what marches into the power vacuum left behind.
I am more than well aware. That's called ACCELERATIONISM.


The enthusiasm of flooding a conflict zone with lethal weapons to hurt an adversary largely of our own making. [/quote]

I already pointed out that "largely of our own making" is nonsensical.

There is NO WORLD that exists where that never happens, get over it.


There are almost NO jews remaining in Poland, and Poland's right wing parties acted out a tantrum objecting to the press making references to Poland's participation in Nazi atrocities, saying it was unfair character assassination.
Your paternal grandfather might as well be MY Italian maternal grandfather, who was almost taken for one of those rides, although not in a chopper.
He was told he had a matter of hours to vacate his wrought iron works and cabinet-making shop, which resulted in him fleeing to America in the 1920's with my Mom in tow while his wife stayed behind trying to salvage anything that was left. A few years later he returned and tried to make another go of it but gave up and came back to America, this time with the wife.


The day you're not allowed to vote at all or forced to vote as I described, you get to say that.
Or you can be a half-empty glass guy and say it but I intend to vote this fall and in 2024 if we still can.
Do I think our representative democracy is ideal? Far from it.
But I don't even know what you think IS ideal democracy...if you want direct democracy, know that direct democracy failed 2500 years ago in Athens and that The Party of Trump exerts enormous effort at painting what WE have AS the Athenian experiment when they claim the Founders never intended us to be one.
They count on ignorance to achieve that sleight of hand and you know that.

Avoided by a security agreement with Russia?
Should we also have made security agreements with El Chapo?
After all he ran pretty much all of Latin America.

You do realize that Russia's DEMANDS in said agreement are non-negotiable and consist of

The demands include:
1. A ban on Ukraine entering Nato --- OKAY that one's understandable. Ukraine being in NATO is and always was problematic.
2. Russia wants NATO arms out of Eastern Europe.
3. Russia wants a ban on NATO missiles within striking distance
4. Russia wants autonomy for eastern Ukraine

Hmmmm, no NATO arms anywhere in Eastern Europe...so is there any counter that demands Putin never move his arms INTO Eastern Europe?
A ban on NATO missiles within striking distance, precisely what Trump engineered as regards those Javelins, Ukraine can have them but they
must be parked out of range, making them useless and pointless.
Autonomy for the colonies which Stalin erased and repopulated?

Yeah, sounds very reasonable, if you're on Putin's side, but sorry, very unreasonable unless everyone's okay with more Donestks, more Luhansks, more and more and more
until almost ALL of Ukraine is incrementally Russianized.
Do the Ukrainians get a voice in all of this?
Doesn't sound like they do, Ukrainians be damned so yes let's go with Putin's demands and then say that listening to Ukrainians equals jingoism.

Man oh man it's SOOOO easy to just call people jingoist.

Didn’t say listening to Ukrainians was jingoism.

What I said is- ‘ Your argument of ‘Putin wins, democracy loses’ smacks of jingoism to my ear’. That seems to annoy you. You might simply ask me why it would.

I’m glad you think showing up to vote is democracy. I would disagree but that would be a big departure from the topic at hand. But the argument of losing our democracy seems vague to me. How would we lose our Democracy (your ability to show up to vote) by negotiating a security treaty with Russia. We didn’t seem to lose our ability to go vote (noting not everyone was able to) during the Soviet era of the Cold War and detente. I find your list of Russian demands to be reasonable. Why would we not want to negotiate? The Democratic dies argument doesn’t have any logic to it, imo.

Are you saying you think we should be placing nuclear weapons on Russias border?

I don’t believe you answered my question- Are you ok having Russian troops, bases and weapons systems on our border?

And if you are not, would you explain why not. Ditto if you are.

---I think you're hearing something other than me.
If Putin wins, as in "wins IN Ukraine" ....if he subdues Ukraine, he places his military in Ukraine.
That moves Putin to the doorstep of Europe, agreed?

If not, tell me why that's okay, why subduing the Ukrainians is okay.


Rephrase your question because that's not what I said.
I am saying that if Putin wins, fascism wins, if fascism wins, it grows stronger and continues feeding the monster here.
I did not say that if we negotiate a (entirely one sided) "security agreement" that we wake up tomorrow sans democracy.
Don't play these stupid games.


And that means you think the needs of Ukrainians don't count.


No, of course not.
I think it is obvious why.
I also think that giving in to 100% of Russia's want list puts us one step closer to having Russian troops, bases and weapons systems on our border because
Russia's list does not end with Ukraine, it ends with Trump and the US political party that is now loyal to Putin.
Even if Trump never takes office again, his party is still loyal to Putin now.

In essence, we already HAVE 147 Russian troops in Congress right now and we had Kremlin eyes and ears in the Situation Room for four years.

No, it’s not obvious why.

If it suited the needs of Mexico or Cuba any other neighbor to align itself with the Chinese or Russian governments, would that then make it ok to have either of those countries troops, bases and weapon systems on neighboring territory?

Okay then it's not obvious why and I'll have to live with that.
Still, I live HERE, so I guess that makes me jingoistic in your book, have to live with that, too.

Thing is, if Putin succeeds in putting Ukraine back in the subdued colony list, he's going to do everything in his power to regain access to his vast
global cash holdings, distribute it to his friends in the US Congress and then he ends up funding a fascist takeover here, at which point you can count on
Russian troops wherever he wants them, including inside the borders of his favorite client state, the United States.
He already has 147 congressmen on his side.
You don't seem to have much to say about that either...I know I know, "you hate both sides" you're both-siding this to death.

Sorry that you think 100% of Russia's demands are reasonable and sorry you think it's okay that they are also 100% non-negotiable.
And I am not interested in debating the merits pro or con, I'm really not, because I don't think there's much left to talk about.
Far as I can tell, you're not interested in Ukraine's future...unless it meets Putin's full approval.
Ukraine has a right to its own self-determination, Ukraine has a right to be a democratic republic.
Russia's demands need to be a bit more negotiable.
I guess we will find out if that comes to pass.

By the way, do you also think Putin is also right to make threats about Sweden and Finland joining NATO?

I'm completely fine with Mexico invading the US and taking-back Tejas.

Your aghastitude seems only to extend to Russias involvement in the Ukraine. I don’t recall your indignation ever being expressed with the body counts we’ve racked up in the recent decades. Our ongoing assistance with genocide in Yemen. The many coups.

As long as your so good at knowing what I think , I’ll have a go too and say I think you are unhinged with regard to dealing with a nuclear power. Just guessing but I think you got yourself into a conspiracy lather since 2016 and never found an exit ramp. Full on Blueanon.

Yeah, I’m done trying to talk to you too

That's called Gish Galloping.
This is your thread but I was under the impression it was about Ukraine.
Maybe I'm wrong and it's about "If I can't get you to lay down and agree then I get to hang a jacket on you about body counts, Yemen, too many coups and how everthing-in-the-world-is-americas-fault-omgomgomg-tehhorrorofitall."

In which case, I give up and you win.

But if it really is about Ukraine, which I assume was the hint in "Dumbass" (Donbass??) then I once again remind you that not too long ago that region had Ukrainians living in it until
Stalin decided to do some ethnic cleansing, and ever since, there's Russians there almost exclusively.

Same with those other eastern Russian speaking provinces. They're Russian speaking because anyone who was Ukrainian was liquidated, or moved on outta there.
And my aghastitude simply wants to know if Ukrainians, living IN Ukrainian cities, speaking Ukrainian and depending upon their Ukrainian leadership for protection,
get any say in this whatsoever.

Did you now want to switch to Yemen?
Okay, this is now a thread about Yemen.
Happy now?

Your pretty good at reading my thoughts Jeff. What do you need me to respond for.

Carry on. You always are.

First, I thought you said you were done talking to me. Guess not.
Second, as regards "dealing with a nuclear power", I guess that has already been decided because Putin has apparently directed his army to begin shelling a nuclear power plant.


Fire at Ukrainian nuclear plant, Europe's largest, after Russian attack
A generating unit at the plant has been hit during an attack by Russian troops and part of the station is on fire, RIA news agency cited the Ukrainian atomic energy ministry as saying on Friday.

I suppose that's our fault too, right?

Wonder what happenned to all those polish Jews?….
Hmmmmmmm

Aww Jeeze, oh man what’s these people…
Banderites

Oh nooos they don’t sound nice. We’re they nice? Aw Jeeze
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia

Oh man, that’s not good. They weren’t anti Semitic though were they? Aw Jeeze, you gotta be anti Semitic to be a fascist. Oh boy I hope they weren’t…

“ The OUN-B formed Ukrainian death squads that carried out pogroms and massacres both independently and with support from the Germans”

Crap!!!

Oh man, oh boy. But that was in the past. That’s no important anymore. These folks all went away. Putin’s the fascist. Putin bad! He’s silly talking about Nazis…

‘ In 2014, the regiment gained notoriety after allegations emerged of torture and war crimes, as well as neo-Nazi sympathies and usage of associated symbols by the regiment, as seen in their logo featuring the Wolfsangel, one of the original symbols used by the 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich. ’
Azov Battalion

Double crap!!!

I could go on but you get the gist. I brought up arming and supporting of neonazis in the Ukraine up back in 2016 asi recall. Not a peep from the son of jewish refugees from Germany.

How… odd…

You want s dive that’s easy to wrap your head around these mythical Ukrainian neo Nazis and their outsized impact on the government of Ukraine? Well your in luck! Max Blumenthal, from muck racking Grey Zone and Jimmy Dore dived into it tonight. Wow, what luck!



Arrrrrrgggg!!! Fake news!!! It Burns!!

What "mythical" Ukrainian neo-Nazis?

You brought it up in 2016 and I missed it? Yah, I guess I did miss it.

What's your global point on this.
Yours, not Jimmy Dore...I am tired of sitting and watching some hour long YouTube video because you're too lazy.
Show the video if you like but if you can't be bothered to summarize, I can't be bothered to devote two or three hours watching Jimmy Dore.
Besides, you're almost a carbon copy of the guy anyway, right?

You saying Ukraine is all nazi?

I brought up Poland and the extremely dangerous kaliningrad situation. It was met with crickets mostly. Some shoulder shrugging. Here we are.

Your damn right the far right has a strong and growing international, BTW,Azov, Ukraine's Most Prominent Ultranationalist Group, Sets Its Sights On U.S., Europe

You wanna go down the rabbit hole Jeff?

In the 2012 Ukrainian parliamentary elections "Svoboda" won its first seats in the Ukrainian Parliament,[28] garnering 10.44% of the popular vote and the 4th most seats among national political parties.[29] In the 2014 Ukrainian parliamentary elections the party got 6 parliamentary seats (it won 4.71% of the popular vote in this election).[30] In the 2019 Ukrainian parliamentary election other parties joined Svoboda to form a united party list, these were the Governmental Initiative of Yarosh, Right Sector and National Corps.[31] But in the election this combination won 2.15% of the votes, less than half of the 5% election threshold, and thus no parliamentary seats via the national party list.[32] Svoboda itself did win one constituency seat, in Ivano-Frankivsk.[32][33]

Jeezus, that's less than the Tea Party in 2012, less than the Qanon/Trump faction in 2016.
So much for your theory that modern day Ukraine is pure nazi and that we're supporting nazis.

I think support for antisemitism is on the wane in Ukraine...just a pet theory, because:

'

Shelling the largest nuclear power plant in Europe is a place the entire world doesn't want to be at.
Worse than shelling the largest nuclear power plant in Europe isn't the fault of the United States either.

Did you say the US shelled a Ukrainian nuclear power plant? What the hell jeff! Why would we do that!!!

Yeah, I already mentioned Zelensky’s election was a complete repudiation of Maidan carried out by far right elements. He won a as huge victory on his platform.

Aww Jeeze Jeff, where’d all those Nazis go? What happened to em? Are they gone now? It all so difficult to understand. Russia stealing our elections, Trump jerking off to peeing prostitutes, Israelis arming neo Nazis, the protocols of the elders of Zion. It’s all so confusing.

Show me where I said the US shelled a Ukrainian nuclear power plant.

I asked if you believe that the Ukrainians are all nazis (or nazi sympathizers) and I showed the latest on Far Right presence in their legislative body...at the current time it looks as though the Ukrainian Far Right coalition presence in the Rada is smaller than the American Far Right presence in Congress, which is about fifty percent.

Then I must have missed that thread.


Apparently not as large as our own Far Right presence.
Anaheim California, home to Disneyland, apparently has a larger Far Right White Nationalist presence than modern day Ukraine.
And as I asked earlier:


And I also made a rough analogy on possible similar scenarios in California where strange bedfellows might unite...


There, I posted it again so you can see it again.

Aw Jeeze Jeff, I think I answered your questions. I don’t know, did I?
Oh man, you mean RUSSIANS are fascists and Ukrainians have none. Oh wow, how’d I miss that,
Hoo boy, 25 million dead Russians from the German Nazis and now their the Nazis?
Wow. Life. Don’t try to understand it. What’s the news have to say about it?

Aw boy Jeff. Help me understand. I’m so confused. Aren’t there Jews in Israel? Didn’t some of em come from Germany to escape the Nazis? What’s going on, I don’t understand.. Are these the children of German Jews? Some of them? Why are they doing this Jeffrey?

Rights Groups Demand Israel Stop Arming neo-Nazis in Ukraine

Aw man Jeff, oh boy. Don’t these guys know about the letters of the elders of Zion and the pogroms and the starvations. Oh man Jeff, it’s all so complicated and confusing. I’m scared. Give me a simple explanation Jeff. Just tell me who’s to blame Jeff..

“ The DC establishment’s standard defense of Kiev is to point out that Ukraine’s far right has a smaller percentage of seats in the parliament than their counterparts in places like France. That’s a spurious argument: What Ukraine’s far right lacks in polls numbers, it makes up for with things Marine Le Pen could only dream of—paramilitary units and free rein on the streets.”

Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine

Oh wow Jeff, that’s spooky. Howd they do that Jeff? Howd they predict what you’d say about the ultranationalist in Ukraine politics? Howd they do that Jeff? That’s from three years ago. It’s 2022 now. Howd they know you would say that. It’s so weird Jeff.

Paramilitary units Jeff! That’s where I bet they are. Yeah that makes sense. Wonder what they’ve been doing Jeff. Do they know about the letters of the elders of Zion Jeff? Do they know about the starving and the pogroms? Why are they fighting Russians Jeff? Don’t they know they should be friends Jeff? Hasn’t anyone told the Azov bois they’re bothers? I don’t get it. How does this mistake happen? Why are they fighting each other? Is it because Stalin Jeff. Was it because of the starving times that Nazis fight fascists?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ban-boxing-champion-over-anti-semitic-comments-ex-titlist-says/

https://www.jpost.com/international/klitschko-i-dont-want-to-go-back-to-days-of-ussr-380699

https://www.worldjewishcongress.org...ish-congress-office-in-new-york-6-3-2016

Somewhere in the flame wars if this thread, which I’m guilty of and apologize to offended fellow ranters, I mentioned Tiabbi recent piece:

“ For anyone expecting me to be outraged about this — I am, after all, almost daily denounced as a Putin-lover and apologist, so surely I must want the Great Leader to stay in power forever — I have to disappoint. If Vladimir Putin were captured tomorrow and fired into space, I wouldn’t bat an eye.

I would like to point out that we already tried regime change in Russia. I remember, because I was there. And, thanks to a lot of lurid history that’s being scrubbed now with furious intensity, it ended with Vladimir Putin in power. Not as an accident, or as the face of a populist revolt against Western influence — that came later — but precisely because we made a long series of intentional decisions to help put him there.”

Putin the apostate

No love for Putin found there but brings up inconvenient history in the midst of a media fire hose of misinformation that’s been happening.

I can’t believe how many times I’ve watched this movie in my lifetime..

"Elected on a platform of de-escalation of hostilities with Russia, Zelensky was determined to enforce the so-called Steinmeier Formula conceived by then-German Foreign Minister Walter Steinmeier which called for elections in the Russian-speaking regions of Donetsk and Lugansk.

In a face-to-face confrontation with militants from the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion who had launched a campaign to sabotage the peace initiative called “No to Capitulation,” Zelensky encountered a wall of obstinacy.

With appeals for disengagement from the frontlines firmly rejected, Zelensky melted down on camera. “I’m the president of this country. I’m 41 years old. I’m not a loser. I came to you and told you: remove the weapons,” Zelensky implored the fighters."
How Ukraine’s Jewish preside...taries on front lines of war with Russia

Whaaaa!!!

but...but..but... Zelenski's Jewish!

The Grayzone is a left-wing[2] to far-left[9] news website and blog[13] founded and edited by American journalist Max Blumenthal.[10] The website, initially founded as The Grayzone Project,[14] was affiliated with AlterNet before becoming independent in early 2018.[3] The website's news content is generally considered to be fringe[3][15][16][17] and it is known for its sympathetic coverage of authoritarian regimes[3][11][18] and its denial of the Uyghur genocide.[22]

I am not interested in debating whether Ukrainians made sound choices in Zelensky, but the fact is, he's enjoying robust support.
I can't vote in Ukraine and neither can anyone else in this forum, so it's a moot point.

Here is what I am interested in...the long term goals of Vladimir Putin, namely dismantling democracies around the world and replacing them
with authoritarian regimes.
BONUS HINT!! They won't be COMMUNIST regimes, or even remotely leftist, that's a guarantee.

If Ukraine was, in fact, already a part of the Russian Federation since 2000, or even since 1998, would it be safe to say that Putin might attempt to leverage some kind of assault on another country in the buffer region?
I think so. I think he'd set his sights on destabilizing Hungary, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Moldova, Estonia, Turkey, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Macedonia, Albania, Slovenia, and finally... ??

He can do that with a lot less effort if NATO itself is destabilized and effectively neutered, yes?
Let's see, which American president did his level best to neuter NATO?
Name's on the tip of my tongue...

Does anyone actually think that Putin would be satisfied enough to withdraw if he takes Ukraine?
Does anyone actually believe that getting rid of NATO solves our problems?
Does anyone think that it is remotely possible that some folks on the Far Left believe that Putin knows what's best for the world today?

SEE: Useful idiot Donald Trump

If anyone can conclusively prove that the overwhelming MAJORITY of Ukrainians see Vladimir Putin as a hero, let them "speak now or forever hold their peace."

Every country has their MAGAts.

I like this article from the Jerusalem Post in its intent to provide cover for supporting a side in the conflict by dismissing the aims of Russia’s ‘denazification’ rational to invade. While I don’t believe it’s the main reason, taking Mearsheimer‘s strategic balance of power rational as a main driver, it’s been reported on that thefailure to get The Minsk agreement implemented was on account of the persistent thwarting by the fascist elements in Ukraine’s government and military.

“ While Ukraine, along with many other European countries, has far-right political parties and neo-Nazi organizations, the fact that since its turn to the West in 2014, there have been prominent Jews in the Ukrainian government and its current president is Jewish make this claim seem ludicrous.….

…. The battalion has been a bastion of neo-Nazis and extreme right-wing figures. As an independent militia, Azov originally sported the neo-Nazi Wolfsangel symbol which resembles a black swastika on a yellow background, and its founders came from the ranks of a paramilitary national socialist group called “Patriots of Ukraine.” It was also accused of committing torture and war crimes.

Ok, so far so good. Recognizing this internal political and military problem is real. But here’s the ‘nothingburger’ attempt at justifying the support of a side in an 8 year civil war that has neonazi elements-

“ However, since its incorporation into Ukraine's official armed forces it has moved away from neo-Nazism, and a Ukrainian Jewish group as early as 2016 did not oppose lifting the US ban.”

Huh! So if you’ve incorporated neonazi elements into official armed forces those elements are no longer fascist neonazis?…. How so?
What about the possibility that the reverse is also as likely? The Ukrainian military becomes more fascist by harboring, well, fascists within it.

If you’ve not been paying attention to these internal conflicts in Ukraine it’s doubtful you would know about the undermining of the Minsk agreements, to reunify the breakaway republics and end the ongoing paramilitary violence there, by these same fascists elements. My understanding is the hardcore have been put into leadership roles at the troop level. Placing them there is an insurance policy that the regular troops won’t dare surrender and risk being killed by same.

I fear without the ability for a quick surrender, the difficult task of overcoming resistance will mean a lot more bloodshed. With us assistance as usual. We seem determined to fight to the last Ukrainian.

Partition looks inevitable and the west will have a far right buffer state in western Ukraine full of fascist right wing neonazis anc far right ultranationalist. You know.., freedom fighters.

Should go well. Hasn’t it always?

Max Blumenthal has interesting parents. His dad having been in the vanguard with the merging of the Democratic Party and corporate media.

The greyzone is a muck racking investigative journalist site. Yes, it leans left. Depending on where you fall on the political spectrum, that may be a good thing or not. They do, however, good investigative journalism and not prapoganda, though more and more people seem to not know the difference .

I like your comic book level of thinking Jeff. Don’t ever change.

Radio Free Europe, 2018:

‘ For the Ukrainians, too, the benefits extended outside the ring. It marked a step toward legitimizing Azov among its counterparts in the West and set in motion what appears to be its next project: the expansion of its movement abroad.’
Azov sets its sites on American streets

I’d be happy to go thru the entire political spectrum of journalism Tat. I’m not sure if your problem is with the left or understanding the reality of the situation in the Ukraine with regard to rising Eastern European facism?

What’s wild, having started this thread initially, is the ‘your either with us or Putin’.
I’m not with either for the record. Just noting the hard right shift of the Blueanon posters. What’s inconvenient to them is taken as heresy and proof of your no allegiance.

The reality is propaganda when it contradicts their world view. A neonazi situation in the Ukraine can’t exist if doing so would support Putin’s narrative. Hence, a far right, reality can’t exist or, it’s minor enough to ignore.

This after Charlotte having taken place, it was impossible for a time not to hear about the neonazi threat.

Wild.

I see, so not wanting to allow Putin increasing power in Eastern Europe is comic book level thinking.
Got it.

Never wrestle with a pig

(idiomatic) To engage in a struggle with an opponent that benefits from the struggle even without winning.

I just want to know if it's wrongheaded to oppose Putin's ambitions in Europe, that's all.
I'm not getting much of a response to my earlier scenario in which Ukraine, from say perhaps 1998 onward, would have had its fate sealed forever as
a Putin colony, is no longer relevant as a possible "Western friendly" European nation, and whether or not Putin would view that fate accompli as permission to
advance on other neighboring countries in a series of succesive restoration of the old Soviet style sphere of influence.

By the way, if you really want to argue whether or not Putin has embraced fascism or not, in the end it doesn't matter on the surface once one
reaches a certain level of authoritarian power, because at street level, you are told what to do and think regardless.
But at the top level, the friends of power are markedly different.
And they have PERSONAL and INDIVIDUAL wants and needs that may be markedly different.

The fictional Arthur Jensen in Paddy Chayefsky's "Network" asked Howard Beale:

"What do you think the Russians talk about in their councils of state -- Karl Marx? They get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories, minimax solutions, and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions and investments, just like we do."

Well, what do you think the Russians talk about in their councils of state today --- Adolf Hitler?
No, they talk about leveraging oil hegemony mostly, because petroleum is about ---- what, seventy percent of the Russian economy now?
Its industrial structure dramatically shifted away from heavy investment in manufacturing and agriculture toward market services, oil, gas, and mining since the fall of the socialist command economy to a capitalistic market system in 1990.

Russia is desperate for capital investment from the West and the only way they're going to get it is if they soften the ground a lot more as regards attitudes toward Putin's advancement in Eastern Europe.
From Wiki:

Lithuania:
chemical products and plastics (17.8%), machinery and appliances (15.8%), mineral products (14.7%), wood and furniture (12.5%).

Ukraine:
one of the world's largest grain exporters.

Moldova:
a well-established wine industry. It has a vineyard area of 147,000 hectares (360,000 acres), of which 102,500 ha (253,000 acres) are used for commercial production. Most of the country's wine production is made for export. Moldova's agricultural products include vegetables, fruits, grapes, wine, and grains.

Estonia:
Oil shale energy, telecommunications, textiles, chemical products, banking, services, food and fishing, timber, shipbuilding, electronics, and transportation are key sectors of the economy.

Czech Republic:
In 2018 the largest companies by revenue in the Czech Republic were: automobile manufacturer Å koda Auto, utility company ÄŒEZ Group, conglomerate Agrofert, energy trading company EPH, oil processing company Unipetrol, electronics manufacturer Foxconn CZ and steel producer Moravia Steel.

Bulgaria:
Extraction of metals and minerals, production of chemicals, machine building, steel, biotechnology, tobacco, food processing and petroleum refining are among the major industrial activities.

Hungary:
See "Science and Technology"

----So Putin stands to gain a huge windfall by rejiggering the political fortunes and future of these countries, and of course, adding their output almost directly to Moscow,
because when you're an authoritarian at his level, that's what you do, regardless of whether you do it via a network of communist "collectives" or if you do it by stuffing the pockets
of your oligarch buddies.

Suddenly the Russian Federation gets a very diverse basket of goods and services to round out and empower their already moribund petro-dominated economy, and that further fuels his peristaltic advance into the Western world.

Seems the above nations already would have jumped into his lap all by themselves a long time ago if he'd offered a better deal than the West, dontcha think?

Not if it’s not in our interest. No.

Your memes are the few things I still enjoy.

So why are you on the thread then. Project much?

Why would I want to argue with your hypotheticals?

You want to talk in pop cultural references. Go for it.

The Minsk agreement was a real thing negotiated between Moscow, the EU and German chancellor. It was a negotiated peace settlement that all parties agreed to. The Ukraine government has failed to implement the treaty. The paramilitary units have killed 14k in the breakaway.

I’m sorry the mother Goddess of your tribe didn’t make it in 2016. She should have gone to Michigan…

It’s been solid temper tantrum since.

"What does Putin want? His aims go well beyond Ukraine. As the Atlantic’s Anne Applebaum summarizes: He “wants to put so much strain on Western and democratic institutions, especially the European Union and NATO, that they break up. He wants to keep dictators in power wherever he can, in Syria, Venezuela, and Iran. He wants to undermine America, to shrink American influence, to remove the power of the democracy rhetoric that so many people in his part of the world still associate with America. He wants America itself to fail.”

Trump’s foreign policy sought to do much of what Putin wants to achieve, including intimidating Ukraine by withholding vital defensive weapons. Trump, like his role model in Moscow, favored weakening NATO, elevating dictators (from China to Turkey to North Korea to Hungary to Russia), undermining democratic elections, demonizing the media (the best check against power-hungry politicians) and finding common ground with kleptocratic-style governments.

...Certainly, there is a disconnect on the right, with many Republicans in the Senate trying to find some way to blame President Biden for insufficient resolve in opposing Putin’s invasion scheme. (Republicans in disarray!) But just a couple of years ago, these Republicans were perfectly content supporting a president who extorted Ukraine to get dirt on Biden, tried to welcome Russia back into the Group of Seven, provided cover for Russian interference in the 2016 election and parroted Russian propaganda on Crimea. It takes quite a feat of contortion for these Republicans to remain defenders of Trump and deplore his successor for not doing enough to stand up to Putin."

EXCERPT WaPo OpEd

Yanukovich was removed from office during that time...PHYSICALLY REMOVED, by the Ukrainian people, and the Ukrainian Rada (their parliamentary body) RATIFIED it.
I guess that doesn't count for anything unless you believe Trump was behind the scenes in 2013 helping the Ukrainians 😆😆😆

As I said earlier, how different the Orange Revolution was in composition than Euromaidan.

From BBC, March 2014:

‘
These two images illustrate how complex and contradictory is the subject of the far right in Ukraine's mass protest movement, the Euromaidan.
Their role in ousting the president and establishing a new Euromaidan-led government should not be exaggerated.
But, as the second image shows, nor should their involvement be played down, especially now they have assumed key ministerial posts.’

Ukraine's revolution and the far right

Gee. What came after Maidan Jeff?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…

A really interesting round table of the elders on the current geopolitical crises. Starts with Mearsheimer and ends after a half dozen speakers give their Hot takes. Usual technical problems in the first few minutes but gets resolved.

You expect everyone to sit down and watch an hour and a half long talking head video?

I don’t expect anyone to do anything they don’t want too. You think everyone reads your posts?

I wonder when the they’ll get around to calling em freedom fighters..

‘ With Russian forces besieging Mariupol, in which 120,000+ ethnic Greeks live, SKAI news spoke with a Mr Kiouranas who lives in the city and exposed that Ukrainian “fascists” are killing people for trying to leave the city.’

Greeks in Mariupol

Wonder which will turn out to be more accurate? Your posts claiming Russian troops were shelling a Nuclear power plant or there being fascist units using human shields?

Interesting view from India. Wasn’t India one of a number of non-aligned nations from the Cold War? Anyway, Arnad is a bombast and aligns politically with the BJP. Apparently, the views he’s expressing has support even with opposition parties. Our imposing sanctions on India for not voting the ‘right way’. We being the mockracy lovers may have contributed to the views he’s expressing. Dunno. Worth checking out what another important country is saying. For some. Oddly, he had Doctorow on and took the opposite tack earlier this week. He was so offensive to Doctorow that he wound up leaving the panel discussion. Doctorow claimed, after the confrontation, that his readership of Indians shot up to 2nd. largest readership, behind the US. Maybe Arnad has his finger in the wind and is acting accordingly?

Huh.. How are they gunna keep neonazis down on the farm after they’ve seen Ukraine. One wonders about blowback similar to what we saw arming ultra conservative mujahadeen back in the 70’s. On the other hand, I smell a selling opportunity.

Newsweek March 2023

‘ Like Kuzmenko, Brunson emphasized that Putin's pretext for intervention is cynical, and Ukraine has little choice but to accept any and all help from wherever it can be found, "despite the risk of far-right groups perhaps discrediting the resistance."
Far right joins the fight

What BS Newsweek is hosing with here. Joins the fight? It’s been leading the fight for 8 years. Far right ultranationalist and neonazis have been understood as a force in Eastern European nations and Ukrain in particular for over a decade. If you were paying attention anyhow. If not, well, you might not understand why you’ve got neonazis on your ‘side.

Also, the statement that ‘Putin saying he was only going to fight neonazi units’ is flat out BS, IMO. I don’t recall him saying anything like that in his speeches before or during the invasion. Unless someone here can recall it. I can’t. I do believe the Russians know that far right nationalist have been a major impediment to having the Minsk agreement implemented.

I think this piece is trying to inject a rational for it being OK to have neonazis on ‘our’ side. But hey, if Israelis can send them weapons who are we to argue?

https://www.emptywheel.net/2022/03/01/three-things-part-1-cognitive-dissonance-and-ukraine/

This gets me to my main point. I read non-interventionists (Cato, Mearsheimer) writing that we should not have pushed Ukraine to join the EU and NATO. In my view, this is much more about Ukraine’s autonomy and wish to be a fully functioning democracy. Many with whom I worked are now getting bombed or fleeing.

Eureka says:
March 1, 2022 at 8:28 am

Oh good lord. If you’re invoking Mearsheimer — just like the Russian Minister of Foreign Affairs did yesterday (see via Ioffee below) — I urge you to read Michael McFaul’s thread from February 18, 2022:

Michael McFaul: “Lots of people in my feed recently keep referencing Professor Mearsheimer as the great explainer of the current Russia-Ukraine conflict. I have some thoughts. THREAD 1/”
https://twitter.com/McFaul/status/1494588830002790406
3:25 AM · Feb 18, 2022

[…]

“On Ukraine, I think Mearsheimer is wrong. It is not the US fault that Putin invaded Ukraine in 2014 and might do so again now. We debated these issues in @ForeignAffairs w/ @SSestanovich years ago: Faulty Powers [link] via @ForeignAffairs
4/”

[…]

Julia Ioffe: “Congratulations to everyone who made this happen. [QRT MFA Russia, who links, screenshots. and states in part “Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault” article by John J. Mearsheimer (@ForeignAffairs, 2014).” ]”
https://twitter.com/juliaioffe/status/1498414742175633410

If the war had ended quickly Putin could have claimed anything he wanted and in a Trumpian move...whatever he said would have been the truth.

But, just like Trump, Putin has surrounded himself with lackeys who won't give him information that he doesn't want to hear. He has grossly miscalculated many facets of his invasion.

Putin and Russia are destined to lose this war.

Some of us have been stating over the years that an expansionist NATO into Russia’s area of interest is not a wise idea. Given that he, and a host of others in the diplomatic core, we’re warning that the current situation could very well be the result if we continued with those policies, it looks like the results were now seeing has proven them to be right.

Considering the amount of death and destruction brought on by NATO aggression over the last twenty years, it seems disingenuous to suddenly have democratic pieties being used as cover for those same policies.

Questions:

Do you think that the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians are neo-Nazis and antisemites?
Do you think that the Ukrainian people cast a fair vote in the Zelensky election?
Do you think that the Ukrainian desire for sovereign self determination is valid?

F*ck Russia. And the horse they rode in on. They need to be working with Europe and the United States, and really, the rest of the world, towards achieving some form of global unity.

The United States is also an assh*le. That goes without saying. But some efforts are always underway to make it less of an assh*le.

Russia just attacked a peaceful, democratic neighbor. Like the US attacking Canada or Mexico. No efforts are underway to make Putin less of an assh*le since these usually result in poisoning.

It's going about as well as the Jan 6 attack on the Capital.

NATO can and must, in this instance, be seen as the good guys.

I’m guessing the country gets partitioned, giving Russia the buffer state it’s looking for.

I also think Russia’s in the first phase. A reconnaissance in force with the boot coming down hard in the coming days. Putin’s not the sole decision maker here. General Staff, DefMin are involved. I don’t know if Chechnya’s hunter brigades have been deployed yet. They were called up. I’m afraid they haven’t really started the assault on the cities yet. I really hope I’m proven wrong. Those Ukrainian citizens handed all those mockracy weapons are going to get slaughtered.

NATO just helped kill a million Iraqis
Thousands in Libya. Syria.

NATO is what NATO has been doing. I’m not going to defend their record.

Not surprised.
You're doing a fine job defending Putin, which in any other circumstances would be..."it is what it is" but in this case,
it becomes a long and winding road to Putin doing to the rest of Europe's democracies what a hungry bear does
to a car loaded with groceries, even if you tossed a spare steak to him earlier in the day.

You trust him to be satisfied with a small partition of Donbass and Luhansk if you want to.
I trust him as much as I trust COVID to be a respecter of national borders.

No one's asking you to. Their record is our record. We're all aware of it. We're all ashamed of it where we should be and proud of it where we can be.

A million dead Iraqis don't make a million dead Ukranians okay.

NATO was formed to prevent Soviet encroachment on Europe. This is Soviet encroachment on Europe. When this is all said and done Russia might need to join the EU to save their economy.

Except after this, I can't imagine Europe accepting Russia, at least not Putin's Russia anyway. All well and good (sarcasm) because Putin can't imagine being part of Europe either...he will forever see himself as a tsar denied HIS birthright, absolute ownership of an Imperial Russian Empire, everything in it and every serf who walks on his land.

He's even famous for having a tsar's viewpoint on property ownership.

Former Kremlin banker: Putin is the richest person in the world till he leaves power

The fact that, as per Pugachev, Putin considers everything in Russia "to be his" might seem shocking, but it's important to note that the concept of property rights in Putin's Russia is rather different from that of the West.

"A prominent businessman ... said that Mr. Putin had eroded the very notion of property rights in Russia, even for those who displayed fealty. He said that Mr. Putin himself had described private ownership of strategic industries with the Russian word for "roost".
"‘A chicken can exercise ownership of eggs, and it can get fed while it’s sitting on the egg,’ he said, ‘but it’s not really their egg,’” according to the New York Times.

I expect Putin will always maintain a confrontational stance with Europe and the US.

But just like every one of these authoritarian types, their days are numbered and their power limited. I look for Putin to remain in power as long as he wants to remain in power, but in ten years or so he'll be done and gone.

History is a steamroller that flattens them all.

Ahhh, so taking the lazy route (HERE! Watch this one hour video) is exactly the same as reading two paragraphs.

🤣🤣😆😆😂😂


Do you think that the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians are neo-Nazis and antisemites?
Do you think that the Ukrainian people cast a fair vote in the Zelensky election?
Do you think that the Ukrainian desire for sovereign self determination is valid?

Nope, I don't think so.
1991 is 1991 all over again is more likely.
Russians have managed to enjoy a teensy bit more economic indulgence and power in the last couple of decades, and now they're looking
at a stark spectre of ruin.
Several here are certain that the price of a gallon of gas is the sole yardstick of whether this or that party holds power or takes it here.
Welp, there's a whole lotta ruination on the horizon in Russia for a lot more than just gasoline.

So, by the same token, if you're sure high gas prices can knock one party out of power, take a look at a country where across the board "currency collapse"
set off a nationwide revolution.

It's not that I think you're wrong, I just think few if any in Russia are going to let this drag on for ten years.

Some takes on the economic consequences of the economic warfare being waged by the west.

“ Commodity markets have been in turmoil since the Special Military Operation began. European natural gas jumped as much as 60% on Wednesday, as buyers, traders and shippers avoid Russian gas. A combination of sanctions and commercial decisions by shippers and insurers to steer clear has cut that contribution to global supplies sharply over the last week. A default cascade by western companies is perfectly possible. And Supply line disruption is inevitable….
…. The New York Times describes this impact on local businesses and industries as nothing short of “frightening”, as all kinds of small businesses across Europe (prior to last week’s events) have been forced to cease their operations as energy costs outweigh profits. Large industries have not been immune to sticker shock either. “Almost two-thirds of the 28,000 companies surveyed by the Association of German Chambers of Commerce and Industry this month rated energy prices as one of their biggest business risks … For those in the industrial sector, the figure was as high as 85 percent.”
Burning Globalist Structures to Save the Globalist ‘Liberal Order

Hudson’s latest piece-

‘ The basic assumption of economic and diplomatic forecasting is that every country will act in its own self-interest. Such reasoning is of no help in today’s world. Observers across the political spectrum are using phrases like “shooting themselves in their own foot” to describe U.S. diplomatic confrontation with Russia and allies alike...
.. I had expected that the end of the dollarized imperial economy would come about by other countries breaking away. But that is not what has happened. U.S. diplomats have chosen to end international dollarization themselves, while helping Russia build up its own means of self-reliant agricultural and industrial production. This global fracture process actually has been going on for some years now, starting with the sanctions blocking America’s NATO allies and other economic satellites from trading with Russia.For Russia, these sanctions had the same effect that protective tariffs would have had.’
The American Empire self-destructs

Some sobering assessments of the current financial crises. Aside from the arms merchants profiteering thru expansion of NATO markets, the damage this will cause in the near and long term will far outweigh any advantages to one market sector. I’m convinced the neocons running this sh!tshow have not thought it out beyond their own narrow ideology.

As Doctorow wrote in my initial post- ‘Place your bets accordingly’

Now do Zelensky
Or are you a nazi lover?

Surely the press is giving even handed coverage of this champion of self determination and democracy defender, Zelensky’s? A guy that can quote Shakespeare and Churchill (and not at all pandering to Anglosphere audiences) who ran on battling corruption and illiberal oligarchs would have a proven track record? This guy wouldn’t be another Saddam Hussein, Putin, Pinochet or any other authoritarian our state department would in no way climb in bed with? We’re not repeating history? This will surely be the one time our escalation, provocations will be justified and righteous and not turn out to have been built on lies, ignorance and a complicit media pushing false narratives?

There’s no way this isn’t a bunch of rich arseholes having a fight that will be waged by average working class people?

Cuz Zelensky’s the real deal here and your either with us or against us? No way we’ve seen this one before? Totally worth risking a nuclear confrontation for, amiright?

“ Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky rode to power on pledges to clean up the Eastern European country, but the Pandora Papers reveal he and his close circle were the beneficiaries of a network of offshore companies, including some that owned expensive London property.”
Pandora papers reveal offshore accounts

Yeah, I know, who’s these guys publishing this stuff. Must be fake news, look it that Russian alphabet stuff…

I know. What’s up with that site? Never heard of em.. probably fake news from a Putin apologist….

O.K. well….
Ukraine leader seeks to justify offshore accounts

Aljawhudda? C’mon chunks. Those are Arabs, their newspapers don’t count. Hell, Arabs don’t count. You can kill a million of em and no ones going to care too much about it.

O.K.
Revealed: ‘anti-oligarch’ Ukrainian president’s offshore connections


Now wait a minute Chunks, everyone knows that’s a limousine liberal pinko rag. C’mon man!

O.K.
Pandora Papers Expose Secret Wealth, Dealings Of Aliyev, Zelenskiy, Putin, Other World Leaders

Intermediaries, cut out companies, off shore accounts. Seems legit. Like a presidents boy with a coke habit appointed to a petroleum companies board of directors.

Nothing to see here. Move along cuz, move along…

Don't you a cheerleader for "both sides do it?' What's the problem?

Cheerlead?

Personally, I don't much care how we got into this mess. Every party is guilty, some more than others, Putin more than most.

All I care about is how we get out of it. Worst case scenario involves nukes.

The world press and its audience have mostly decided Zelensky is the hero and Putin is the zero.

If you see a way clear for Putin to come out on top in this little imbroglio I wish you'd enlighten me...it's a case once again of authoritarian victories turning to ashes in the mouths of the victors.

I think he will maintain power and maybe throw the PM under the bus? His poll numbers have been very good lately so (thanks to a FOX News sort of state press) most of the country is behind him. ANd they will be blaming the west and NATO for the troubles.

It'd be the BOMB if this was what drove Putin from power but I don't think it'll happen. He's too entrenched. I might be wrong. I'm often wrong so I don't get too emotionally caught up in my arguments.

In a few days, the future we are struggling to predict becomes the past and a new future needs to be plotted while we are still arguing about the past. You know what Enzo said...

Jeeze, so none of those ‘history doesn’t repeat but rhymes’ or ‘those who forget the past are doomed’ proverbs.

There’s also the risk that taking too close a look at who’s been doing what may cut against the propaganda narratives and all the hard work of repeating them from the rants own media kapo?

So who backs Zelensky and fills them offshore accounts?

Who backed the Maidan coup?

Answering those questions may lead to some difficult positions. Is it better to do as the kapo does and make it about feelings?

Near as I can tell we're doomed to repeat past mistakes whether we remember them or not.

And again, I don't care who's backing who or who did what. I don't expect everyone to act like me or think like me. I'm only interested in outcomes and don't have time to waste on emotional outpourings about the failings of others, whether real or imagined.

I'm not the judge of the world. I just observe and try to make sense of it all. What is most important to me is that my final years here are spent in comfort, well-fed, healthy, and worry-free.

Nuclear war might impact that. A republican president probably won't.

Yeah… those emotions.

One the other hand the thread does say ‘the long and winding road..’ so it’s really about that no?
But this isn’t about emotions. I view it as the result of the same neocons with their liberal bedfellows doing the same hijinks only the stakes are much higher. I’ll repeat, these ain’t brown skinned people we can bomb with impunity.

Deescalation and negotiation is the preferred way to go but the right wingers have an enormous war hard-on to go the other way. Russiagate has been a resounding success for our imperial ambitions over Russia. I see this ending badly. Provocation and escalation is the order of the day.

Most of your posts in your thread closely echo the side that elevates Putin's side of the war, which by the way his own people aren't even aware of, except for the
ten thousand or so now in prison for protesting it.

There was a story the other night about a restaurant owner in Ukraine who had to flee across the border.
After a week or so he was wondering why his father, who lives in Russia, hadn't called to inquire about his welfare.
So he called pops and guess what?

These family members in Russia don't believe there's a war going on at all.
They flat out do not believe it.

Kyiv residents say relatives in Russia don’t believe the city is being bombarded



This is where our own Fox News Channel gets it playbook from, it's almost a carbon copy of the same blueprint.

PS: Didja all hear that even Goldman Sachs is now saying "Eeeeeeuuuuwwww, Russians, they've got cooties!" and they're pulling out.
When the Great American Bubble Machine of Matt Taibbi fame says Putin's too icky, that's really saying something.

Oh yeah, Trump's former bank wants to stick with Vlad.

DEUTSCHE BANK:
"We’re there to support our clients. And so, for practical purposes, that isn’t an option that’s available to us."
***
Hey DB...Know what won't be available to you real soon?
The American customer base and all those assets.
Ever hear of the Trading With The Enemy Act?
Well guess what? If or when (and it's increasingly becoming 'when') Putin decides to expand to NATO attacks, WWIII will be on and you've now taken a side.
As I recall, in October 1942 the United States seized the Union Banking Corporation under the Trading with the Enemy Act and held the assets for the duration of World War II.
If sticking with Putin is the hill you wish to die on, go ahead but the price you pay is seeing your US assets seized, which is something ANY free country will be forced to do when it becomes clear that the wealth you're shielding is being used to attack NATO countries, including ours.

Trump's former bank says it's not 'practical' for them to stop doing business with Russia

You define yourself by your enemies. Real or imagined.
When people don’t conform to your BS you take it personally.

CNN? Now there’s an infotainment corporation that’s a straight shooter. Just look at the reporting they’ve done with respect to Syria, Iraq etc..

Howd you like that NATO post celebrating woman’s day featuring a ukranian female soldier? Oops!

How bout that recent NPR interview with a Ukranian official. Seems MPR didn’t have the blur dial up high enough to not recognize the portrait hanging on the wall behind the official. Oops!


Oliver Stones ‘Ukraine on Fire’ has been scrubbed from YouTube. I always like a position that can’t take inconvenient evidence to the contrary. Makes me confident to get in the internet and holler at anyone that doesn’t agree with my BS.

If we manage to muddle thru this crises, I look forward to the future. What could possibly happen flooding far right and Nazi battalions with stingers, RPG’s and small arms. Europe’s far right problem just got a lot worse.

It’s funny how you always mention the Ukraine famine Jeff (and none of the other famines that were occurring at the time) and the bad treatment of Stalin. What other bad treatment happened in that part of Europe? How bout the OUN? Naw let’s just talk about what you think supports your opinion, all scholarly debates on your chosen subject aside. Or the fact that every country that did industrial capitalism/colonialism killed millions. We did it. England did it (boy howdy did they do it) Germany, Holland etc etc. Hell we’re still doing it. WE JUST DID IT….

And I’ll remind everyone who we’re the kapos.

Sounds just like that Russian Dad, if Max Blumenthal was whispering in one ear and Vlad was whispering in the other.

Meh...The far-right already has that here. They shoot themselves in the foot more often than not. And once they take over (witness the Taliban) they fail to govern effectively because they are so wrapped up in their ideology and hatred there is no room for compromise.

This seems to be an argument that the forces for democracy must tie their hands behind their backs rather than use unseemly tactics in the war for freedom.

I don't believe Putin represents freedom or democracy. I don't believe that the US and NATO really do either. But it's not hard to pick a side

It's like an argument about our two political parties...neither one is worth a f*ck. But one's maybe a little better. Both are going to use unseemly tactics, both are corrupt, and all governments are slaves to capital.

Chunks, you seem to want geopolitics to be reasonable and fair with everyone held accountable. World don't work that way. Never has. A million dead here and there means nothing in the greater scheme of things. All those people were gonna die anyway.

But it's getting better and tyrants like Trump and Putin are simply not allowed to push the entire world around for long.

I have already stated I think it’s all B.S and don’t have a side. Though one ranter seems to feel offended with any post of mine that contradicts his fever dream narrative.

Nor have I ever said that geopolitics is a spotless undertaking. What I do mind is criminal incompetence by these Ivy League psychos and the corporate media that backs them in constantly getting our dicks caught in our collective zippers.

It looks as though we’re all going to pay a collective price for these hacks and their supporters both economically and geopolitically. Some more than others. Those most responsible not at all. As is usually the case.

Sorry your mother goddess didn’t go to Michigan.

*I'm assuming you think "Mother Goddess" is Hillz.
Sounds like you're convinced that HRC 2016-2020 would have been worse than Trump.

As a state actor directly involved in the destruction of two functioning societies, her record of voting for the destruction of two others as my state Senator, one can easily make the argument that the right wing mother goddess is a war goddess serving a death drive.
I would also note that the Blueanon formation that resulted from mother goddess’ campaign incompetence also exhibits a death drive now on display. So much so that context and complexity no longer have meaning or tolerated. The blue hive is driven to punish its perceived enemies.
In short, I’m not sure what’s more dangerous, the liberal mother goddess ascending the presidency or the hive mind effects of her loss that is pulling our politics, NGO’s, economy into its death drive orbit.

If your position is one that rationalized Nazis in your Emanuel Goldstein hatred of Putin (say, when did that hatred begin?…) you might be part of a hive mind.

Some of us might object to where the hive is taking us.

I would also mention the blue hive is a largely upper middle class white liberal phenomenon. The same class that desires to rule but not to govern.

Object all you want, "we" are buckled in the backseat and will go where mama and papa take us.

Whether it be Blueanon or Qanon who drive us, we get to beg every two years for one or the other to take the wheel...and some few make the third choice to call an Uber.

Stupid things were done in the past, stupid things are currently being done, stupid things will be done in the future.

My goal is to live happily ever after.

I’m always left with the same two questions after your posts, Chunks… What in the hell are you talking about? And, what am I supposed to do about it?

The next thing that happens is an earworm starts up playing the phrase, “… bring us something we can use…”, and that leads to finding the ‘Songs From The Capeman’ youtube.

Enjoy!

Well yeah…

I’ve already said there gunna do what there gunna do.

Just describing the motivations of the hive mind with implications of its gravitational pull towards a sudden terminal point. We’re on the knifes edge. May not have much runway left to live that best you.

Lots of centrifugal force happening now. Oddly, it seems as though the war dept is the only one having a grip on reality. They seem to know what a ‘no fly zone’ means.

It would be the perfect ironic ending though, wouldn’t it? The most pampered class that has ever lived on the face of the earth would pull it all down in a hissy fit from their inability to deal with reality on its own terms?

Something tragically funny there.

I’ve always seen this protest from you Logs.
Always border policing. What’s your confusion exactly?

That right there is the most twisted description of Madame Clinton I have ever heard bar none. Even the repubs couldn't come up with anything more inflammatory.

I think I can say, without equivocation, that had she been elected, we would find our current situation much more tenable.

You may disagree, but allow me to say, forthwith and without reservation that you, sir, are wrong.

Maybe this discussion will make more sense to you Logs. Seems like it would resonate.

I only need for it to hold together for about ten more years. You might need a little more wiggle room.

Mediocre and boring, but stable.
Hillz would have continued to weather outrage storms stemming from her hostility to technology combined with her arrogance, but on the whole I'd guess her first term 2016-2020
would have been relatively stable, but clouded by her inability to pass much of her domestic agenda thanks to the typical GOP roadblocks.

In other words, in the words of P.J. O'Rourke,
she's "The Devil We Know".

"It's the second-worst thing that can happen to this country, but she's way behind in second place. She's wrong about absolutely everything, but she's wrong within normal parameters."

---and that's about as ringing an endorsement as I was ever going to give to her, but as O'Rourke correctly surmised...

"This man (Trump) just can't be president," O'Rourke said, alluding to the nuclear codes the commander-in-chief takes control of upon assuming office. "They've got this button — this briefcase. He's going to find it."

I don't think I'm confused, here's my take:

All bitch, no pitch.

Looks exactly like right-wing conspiracy theorism with some of the names changed. Temious stuff, goes nowhere, accomplishes nothing.

Pointless.

Really negative and insulting, though.

Ya burnt!

The End Is Near perspective

Well let’s see…

I’ve been called a Putin lover

Stupid

Lazy

All bitch no pitch

Etc etc etc

Yet, somehow, I was able to table a serious geopolitical situation unfolding well in advance of it going ‘military technical’.

All while offering citations for any claims or observations I might have on the developments past and present.

And you’ve, once again, puffed yourself up to blow your self issued referee whistle and insult.

What exactly are you adding here other than what I’ve noted above?

And in case you’ve missed it, and it appears you have with your ‘all bitch no pitch’ it was deescalate and negotiate.

What’s yours?

I find it twisted to ignore her role at state in bringing about the current situation in Libya and Syria and the resulting death and destruction that ensued. Or do you consider those actions a good thing?

Her vote on Iraq and sanctions are another matter of record you could agree or disagree with. She’s a war hawk that burnished her resume by taking a ‘kick ass and take names’ position for her eventual run for the presidency, IMO.

I'm okay with her vote and she has apologized many times for it. Those were difficult times.

I'm also satisfied with her work at state. I think her "war hawk" reputation is largely a creation of her opposition. She knows power, she knows how to handle it and how to speak to it. Tough but compassionate is the way I see her.

Putin commences multiple arrests of top intelligence chiefs, claiming he's been duped by false information.

The Times
@thetimes
A Russian spy chief is said to have been placed under house arrest in a sign that President Putin is seeking to blame the security services for the stalled invasion of Ukraine
thetimes.co.uk
Kremlin arrests FSB chiefs in fallout from Ukraine invasion chaos
The defenestration of several senior spies is a sign of Putin’s growing fury towards the intelligence services


https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1502562921959903233

Anybody surprised by this?

Does it mean he doubles down and sends more troops and more bombers...?

Or that he retreats with regrets and apologies?

I don't know what that means.

Sorry. I just keep wondering what the utility of what you post is. Maybe it's just venting for entertainment, but I get the feeling that you think others here are somehow lacking in something.

I'm just trying to understand the point of what you post. If you aren't looking for solutions, just say so. I'm looking for things I can do that contribute to solutions.

I have no clue what you are talking about.

It's probably best if I don't continue to try to interact with you.

https://twitter.com/JustinDRosario/status/1502110600738095105

https://twitter.com/JustinDRosario/status/1502110602625531924


Putin's Loudest Cheerleaders Have One Thing In Common

Was it inevitable? A short history of Russia's war on Ukraine

Anna Kushchenko was a beautiful model and socialite who wormed her way into Manhattan’s uppity circles under the made-up name “Anna Chapman.”
She worked for the Kremlin — she was a Russian spy.
On June 27, 2010, the FBI swooped in and arrested three men named Mikhail, one named Vladimir, one named Andrei, and five women: Lydia Guryev, Natalia Pereverzeva, Elena Vavilova, Vicky Pelaez and the sultry exhibitionist Anna “Chapman” Kuschenko.
Four years earlier, Sergei Viktorovich Skripal, a Russian intelligence officer who Putin had caught moonlighting in his second job of supplying the UK with Russian military secrets, was tried and sentenced to 13 years in prison for high treason.
He had been in prison four years when the FBI carried out Operation Ghost Stories, arresting Anna Kushchenko and the other nine members of the Russian sleeper cell in New York.
Twelve days after being arrested, the ten sleeper agents were put on a plane leaving the US, while Sergei Skripal and three other imprisoned American and UK spies, were flown out of Russia. The two planes met on the tarmac in Vienna, taxied next to each other, and stopped. Covered stairways were brought to each plane for the biggest spy-swap since the Cold War began.

Anna rose to stardom showing her butt and tweeting a marriage proposal to Edward Snowden in 2013, a move she thought would help him avoid extradition from Putin’s hospitality suite to the US.

Sergei Skripal relocated to Salisbury, England where he lived alone with his cat and two guinea pigs. On March 3, 2018, Sergei’s 33-year-old daughter, Yulia, flew into Heathrow from Russia. Sergei left his home, closing the front door of his home behind him so his animals wouldn’t get out, and proceeded down London Road in his red 2009 BMW. After picking up Yulia at Heathrow, the 66-year-old Sergei drove to the upper parking deck at the Maltings where they parked and headed to Bishop’s Mill Pub in the center of Salisbury. After a drink, they walked to Zinni Italian Restaurant on Castle Street for a leisurely dinner.
The passerby who found them unconscious on the park bench said Yulia was foaming at the mouth with her eyes were rolled back in her head, completely white and wide open, appearing dead.

Novichok is a Russian-made deadly class of chemical nerve agents. It’s what Putin used on Alexei Navalny.
The chemical had been wiped onto Sergei’s front door handle and was transferred to his hand when he pulled the door closed. His two guinea pigs were found dead inside and his cat, in severe stressed breathing, had to be euthanized.
Sergei and Yulia were hospitalized in critical condition, but lived.
Russian intelligence officers Colonel Anatoliy Vladimirovich Chepiga and Alexander Mishkin brought the nerve agent into Salisbury in a pretty perfume bottle and discarded the bottle in a recycle bin after applying a tiny amount to the door handle.
Denis Vyacheslavovich Sergeev was the GRU agent in UK at the time and he facilitated the plot with Chepiga and Mishkin. He was the link in the chain of command that led directly back to Putin.

Three months after the incident, Charlie Rowley saw the pretty bottle in a charity bin and decided to buy it for his girlfriend, Dawn Sturgess.
Dawn endured a horribly painful death.
There was enough nerve agent in the perfume bottle to kill THOUSANDS of people.
It was a banned chemical agent used to murder a British citizen in a NATO country and there wasn’t s*** done about it.

Oh sure, many countries expressed their disapproval by deporting Russia’s spies from various embassies.
Theresa May was the British Prime Minister at the time; Boris Johnson was the foreign secretary.
A few days later in April 2018, Boris flew to Brussels to meet with Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and the foreign ministers from all NATO countries to decide on their joint approach to Russia at the upcoming July summit in Helsinki — the one where Trump dismissed note-takers and talked directly to Putin with no witnesses or recordings.
As other foreign ministers headed home after the April advance-meeting, Boris — with no luggage or security — took a detour to the Perugia San Francesco d'Assisi airport in Italy where he was driven to a night of hard partying at the Tuscany castle of Russian media mogul Evgeny Lebedev, a London resident.
The forty-year-old Evgeny didn’t make his billions; he was born into money — his father is Russian oligarch Colonel Alexander Lebedev, age 60, an “ex” KBG officer…. to the highly unlikely extent any KGB officer can ever be “ex.”

The Russian oligarch, half owner of the Tuscany castle with his son, also flew in for a fun night with Boris in the castle.
The following day, Boris was seen alone in a corner of the airport lounge, disheveled, wrinkled jacket, creased pants, as if he’d had a rough night and slept in his clothes. He walked through the airport in a “curved” posture, carrying a barf bag, stopping to pose for selfies with people who had recognized him.
Boris was also the highest-ranking British official at a London Christmas party held four months earlier on December 15, 2017 at Evgeny Lebedev’s 20 Park Square East townhouse. Boris stayed late into the night with Lebedev, basking in the adulation of earlier-departing guests Elton John, Mick Jagger, Patrick Stewart and British heartthrobs Benedict Cumberbatch and Idris Elba.
Rupert Murdoch was also in attendance.

The UK never retaliated against Russia for the murder of British citizen Dawn Sturgess or the attempted murder of Sergei and Yulia Skripal who, after months of clandestine living under the protection of MI6, now reside in New Zealand under new identities.
Putin’s blatant and open use of a chemical agent to carry out a terror attack inside a NATO country went unanswered.
When asked about Russia meddling in British elections, Boris immediately and emphatically said it had never happened, “not a sausage of evidence.”
I do not pretend to know what that means.
But a 50-page report published in July 2020 by the British Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament said Russia’s interference in British elections was “commonplace.” The committee was prohibited from looking specifically at the Brexit vote which Putin sorely wanted passed to keep the UK from being bound to come to the aide of European Union countries.

Boris: Successfully led the UK out of the European Union — something Putin needed in his quest to begin taking over EU countries.
Trump: Campaigned in 2016, while he was being actively supported by Putin, on the idea of pulling the United States out of NATO — something Putin needed in his quest to begin taking over NATO countries. Once in office, Trump did all he could to malign and weaken NATO, and laid the groundwork for pulling us out, by withdrawing the US from other agreements.
Boris: Not a sausage of evidence Putin meddled in our elections, even though a bipartisan parliament committee found differently.
Trump: Took the word of Putin over every intelligence agency in America telling Trump Russia had meddled in our 2016 elections.
The younger Lebedev is now “The Right Honorable Lebedev” and “The Lord Lebedev” and “Baron of Hampton and Siberia” and every other ridiculous palm-greasing honorarium Boris could slather on him.

The Queen made Lebedev “Baron” at Boris’ request; the House of Lords granted him the “peerage” of “The Lord” and a seat in their upper chamber, at Boris’ request.
When Boris nominated the Moscow-born Lebedev in July 2020 for peerage in the House of Lords, MI6 and other British Intelligence agencies squawked — just as our own intelligence agencies objected to full security clearance for Russia-beholden Jared and others — but Boris, like Trump, personally intervened and ordered him cleared. Of course, Boris denies it.
The Russian oligarch Alexander Lebedev, father of “The Right Honorable Lord Lebedev, Baron of Hampton and Siberia,” has not been placed on the UK sanctions list.

Don’t look for great things out of Boris.

---Cree Hardegree, Pontevedra, GA

That was one of the most insightful pieces I've seen on the subject.

Yeah, there are scholarly reports out there on the subject and the history is real.

But however you look at it, if Vlad Putin wants the Ukrainian people to join his crusade against the West he must ask them nicely and respect their wishes if they say no.

Bombing the sh*t out of them to get your way looks a lot like rape.

Don't the Russians teach their boys any manners?

Intercepted Communications Show Russians Frustrations

https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1506286924549529606


Victor Kovalenko
@MrKovalenko
"Like in #Volnovakha, until we destroy buildings completely, until we fully mix them with dirt together with peaceful civilians, we will not win." New intercepted by #Ukraine SSU phone call between #Russian soldiers. Translation below⬇️

The mind palaces that are being built remind me of the similar undertaking when the neocon mother goddess lost her presidential bid in 2016. The professional classes not being able to come to terms with reality, reenforced by its cynical propaganda media, went on a years long bender of conspiracy fantasies and internet posting.

With the usual military contracting bungling and neocon state department incompetence the liberal professionals have managed to build even taller and shaky palaces than deal with the reality of events.

The sad tragedy of indulging this self indulgent group is the fat tail effects both economically and geopolitically. The move away from the dollar as reserve currency, the prospects of severe food shortages (no one here recognizes Russia’s avoidance of the central agricultural regions in Ukraine) forcing Europe into either US serfdom by buying much more expensive american LNG than Russian gas or break with the US in order to have a viable manufacturing economy. Oil being priced in Chinese Yuan in future trade deals with Saudi Arabia. Current global diesel shortages as no country can replace the crude that Russia supplies, etc, etc..

From a real politic perspective, we have literally forced Russia China and India together to create the largest economic trade bloc and control of the Eurasian land mass and by extension, the world economy.

All in order to satisfy infantilized PMC liberals ego’s and neocons warped world views. What a price others must pay for their accommodation. Their eventual wipeout in the coming election will be cold comfort.

If 2016 is any guide, the mental trauma the ‘adults in the room’ will suffer when it’s clear that the reality doesn’t match the true mind palace realities they’ve created for themselves, the danger will be the blowback from their desperation. We’ve already witnessed what this class is capable of. No telling what they’ll consider doing in the future.

Ummm...by "mind palaces" you mean opinions other than your own?


China, Russia, and India? All bastions of fair play, equality, and democracy. We should strive to be more like them?

No. F*ck 'em. Everyone in the world wants a "western" lifestyle. That's why Chinese, Indians and Russians so often leave their countries. There's more opportunity elsewhere.

2016 will not be a guide. It was a divisive political fluke. Many mind palaces were left scarred and in need of repair, some crumbled to the ground. But all who survived, by necessity, rebuilt and stashed some new files in the "lessons learned" room.

But the one thing we can always be sure of is that those mind palaces are all in our heads.

Yeah, well…

We’ve been done this road before. It’s a matter of historical record. Neocons think they can control the reality but that’s a pretty big assumption the rest of the world will go along. Apparently, with Biden’s neocons running state I guess we’re gunna take a bite from that sandwich again.

Someone asked a question of who can you trust in the media narratives anymore. I forget what the answer was to that question but, for me, it’s pretty simple. Go to the sources that have a track record of calling it right at the time and in the long run.

Then theirs indirect leading indicators of where this is going in other directions as well. One would be the economic impacts that are about to hit. Say what you want but I’m not looking forward to the ‘move fast and break things’ approach to this self imposed circular firing squad of sanctions that Big Joe has imposed. Guess we’re going to see what a tightly integrated global commodities market does when we start randomly pulling cords. On top of supply chain disruptions.

I’ve pulled all the routine businesses purchases forward and keeping my invoicing tight. Tooling has doubled in price as has a good deal of building materials. Now that diesel is about to go thru the roof I can only assume the dreaded shipping surcharges will be arriving shortly. A reminder of the good ol’ GFC days.


To me, that’s the upside to a material critique. Keeps ya grounded to what’s going on in the world. Western media can pitch to people ‘freedom juice’ at the pump or Mockracy’ tax all day long but material conditions matter. Most definitely in war. The chatter here now does not represent the reality I’m reading. Guess time will tell.


I’d say material conditions matter as much as perception conditions over the long run. The short run, like the lead ups to past murderous invasions, I’d give it to the perception reality.

Yeah, this isn't the first war that ever happened. Nor is it the first pandemic, nor the first time suppy chains got bollixed. But history doesn't hold the answers to the problems, they just make it easier to predict the outcomes.

Whether it be Biden's neo-cons, Putin's neocons, Modi's neocons or Xi's neocons they not only think they control the reality they actually DO control it.

Some call them oligarchs, some call them billionaires, they are Our Corporate Overlordsâ„¢

They are the neo-cons... they control the verticle...they control the horizontal...

Have you seen their profits lately?

Dunno what a chinese or Russian neocon is. All I know is the ones we got in state.

I thought the masons were the ones who controlled the level and square?

India has entered an agreement with Russia to purchase oil in rupees. The RUBINR swap line.

Russia will only accept rubles for oil payments. Should be interesting to see how Europe sorts that one out. My guess is a brisk trade in unsanctioned Russian banks. Europeans will have to deposit Euro’s to exchange them for Rubles to get that LNG.

Booting Russia off SWIFT has accelerated the implementation of both Russia’s and China’s nascent competing SPFS and CIP systems respectively. The SPFS system is already up in India. As Hudson pointed out, sanctions often have the opposite effect of hurting your export markets while creating new domestic markets in the targeted country. He gives the example of the late 70’s grain embargo on Russia. The result was Russia got its farming in order and is now the largest exporter of grain (and competitor to US exports) in the world. One wonders how many real new unintended consequences will come out of this NATO Russian proxy war. My guess is it will take time to see if this fight will have been worth it.

One thing looks certain. No pivot to Asia any time soon. Wouldn’t it be hilarious and fitting if the world goes up in smoke it’ll be over a no show jobs program for our latest crooked presidents fail son? Say! Is it ok to talk about that laptop nugget now that the elections over?

“ (Bloomberg) -- President Joe Biden said that the world will experience food shortages as a result of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, and production increases were a subject of discussions at a Group of Seven meeting on Thursday. “It’s going to be real,” Biden said at a news conference in Brussels. “The price of the sanctions is not just imposed upon Russia. It’s imposed upon an awful lot of countries as well, including European countries and our country as well.”

Biden Says to Expect ‘Real’ Food Shortages Due to Ukraine War


“ Fertilizer prices were already high before the war. They have now reached record levels amid a precipitous drop in Russian supply, according to CRU Group, which analyzes commodity markets. At the same time, more-expensive natural gas, another Russian export and a crucial ingredient in fertilizer-making, has led European fertilizer factories to scale back production.

The result is that fertilizer is about three to four times costlier now than in 2020, with far-reaching consequences for farmer incomes, agricultural yields and food prices.

Fertilizer Prices Surge as Ukraine War Cuts Supply, Leaving Farmers Shocked

There was already an ongoing global fertilizer shortage before the hostilities. Russia is the largest producer of fertilizer in the world. It was noted elsewhere that grain commodity prices are already higher than than it was at the outbreak of the Arab spring.

One wonders if it would have been better to have entered into negotiations on a security framework with Russia as they were insisting on back in December (referring to the initial post of this thread).

Probably not. Putin would have used it to set up the conflict and make it all NATOs fault.

As it stands Putin is entirely on his own. Prices will rise, food supplies become scarce, people will starve and die. Just another day at the office for geopolitical politics.

Money controls everything.

Coulda, woulda don’t make it so.

Russia’s been asking for security guarantees and setting red lines for two decades now. That’s as matter of record wether one wants to cop to it or not or prefers Emanuel Goldstein narratives is a personal preference. We effed around and are finding out how unserious and delusional neocon foreign policy was/is. Conversely, how serious and realist the Russians were/are. Or we goaded them on purpose? Why were we not willing to negotiate a security framework? Seems like our past governments always managed it. Wonder what’s different now?

Anyhow, the monied classes presidential servant’s son laptop problem looks to be blowing up now. The Presidents got dirty fingers in a very dirty country thru his son and those there monied players, neocon or whathavya. If the far right takes control of Congress and senate there’s going to be an interesting opportunity for impeachment payback. My guess is another round of escalation to try and take the heat off. A mysterious chemical attack seems possible and is getting repeated from the US side. Are the Nazis listening? Sounds ideal to internationalize the conflict. Something Zelensky’s been trying to do from the outset of the war.

An interesting historical perspective and it’s relevance for events taking place today:

“
It’s common just now to see these events as a temporary roadbump on the route to a future of business as usual, or to blame them on the supposed personal villainy of Russia’ds President Vladimir Putin. Such evasions are as easy as they are hopelessly mistaken. They betray, among other things, a stunning ignorance of history, since this is hardly the first time that an era of economic globalization has shattered under the pressure of geopolitics. Several thoughtful writers have already noted the parallels between the present crisis and the collapse of Victorian economic globalization a century ago.”

The End of the European Age

These neocons and their neoliberal fellow travelers… all gas, no brakes. I think they were told to many times how special they were at the schools they attended. It looks as though we’re all going to pay the price of having indulged this cohort now dominating state, security and think tanks. The suicidal tendencies of the rich ruling classes?

Well yes. Part of "business as usual" is competition.

And some of the other large nations in the world are competing for a bigger slice of the pie.

That means somebody else gets a smaller piece...or everybody agrees to an equal slice.

Yeah, let’s say you’ve agreed that geopolitics is a zero sum game for arguments sake (I don’t agree, btw).
What’s amazing to me I’d how were going about it. I don’t see an upside to this gambit of maintaining our pie slice. Trying to keep a soon to be impoverished Europe in our economic sphere and stop its eastward gaze by the inability to do contract law (undermining several agreements, seizing assets and reserves of a sovereign country, weakening your dominant currency and causing widespread economic, political and agricultural chaos seems a funny way to maintain your slice.

Smells like failure and desperation. A very dangerous combo for people with hands on levers.

The other problem with the pie argument is- who’s pie?

Last I looked, our country is becoming increasingly impoverished starting with de industrialization . That’s now coming to the vassal states in Europe.

Russia didn’t deindustrialize. Or China. Last I looked, our drywall screws come from China. We scrapped our B&S screw cutting machines decades ago along with the working classes that ran them. Not everyone got that retraining to become iPod designers, financial planners or diversity training consultants.

Seems like a foreign policy in conflict with economic policy to me.

No, they didn't. They de-humanized instead. In service to industry.

You don't hear folks over there asking for a sustainable wage, free education, and M4A.

They don't ask for anything. They just work in the sweatshops turning out drywall screws.

Like we used to do here. Until they fall over dead.

Here's The Pie

Uhh… not saying it’s a workers paradise in Russia but what are you basing your descriptions on? Sounds like exaggeration to me or conditions from our implementation of economic ‘shock doctrine’ from the early 90’s. Today’s Russia is far improved from that time period.

Again… who’s pie is this goatf#ck foreign policy we’ve committed to are we talking about? Were wrecking global supply chains in the persuit of ‘full spectrum global dominance’ as though one country could run the world. Resolving these geopolitical and economic contradictions looks like a unfolding disaster.

The ‘doubling down’ of the neocons looks very dangerous. A person who’s lost their ideological position and world view tends to commit even harder to the bit. I think they’ll wreck a good deal more than Ukraine and Europe in order to justify their positions and world view.

No. It's not. I've been reading interviews with some of the many thousands of Russians who are fleeing Russia. When asked whether they were worried about Russophobia in other countries they said no. Nothing could be worse than the way Russia treated Russians.

It's a horrible place to live. Unless you're an oligarch.

And speaking of a worker's paradise, China ain't the first place that comes to mind either.

But you think we should be more like them? Grinding people up in the industrialist's machines?

I have an entirely different vision for the future of humanity. A much gentler future.

You mean, "Relax, and have a homebrew"?

Time for a near limerick?

There once was a man named Dick,
Who was blessed with a corkscrew prick.
He spent his life in a futile hunt
For a woman with a corkscrew (kooch).
And when he found he he fell over dead,
Damned if she wasn't a left hand thread!

“ No. It's not. I've been reading interviews with some of the many thousands of Russians who are fleeing Russia. When asked whether they were worried about Russophobia in other countries they said no. Nothing could be worse than the way Russia treated Russians.”

Yes. It is.
Did all that interviewing turn up any Russian expat longing for the days of the Yeltsin regime? Reading stories of expats for commentary about the state of their home country is like interviewing Miami Cubans about the state of Cuba. The book ‘Immigrants as a Weapon’ from the earlier linked author Yasha Levine explains the US practice of using far right, upper class emigrees for propaganda purposes. The quick take: we rehabilitate fascists and rightwing elements to our foreign policy causes. Cuz we’re basically a rightwing country in a liberal wrapper.

I’m of the opinion that governments are there to improve its citizens lives. From there, I can form an opinion if that is being done or not in the US as well as other countries. You might not like how other countries organize but you can objectively tell wether or not they have a fed population and has made available those things that are needed to sustain life. That’s going to get very difficult for the NATO sphere countries of Europe. I’m guessing some political backlash in the coming year.

It’s planting season right now. Fertilizer and diesel have skyrocketed in costs thru out Europe.
The IMF has recently issued a warning the dollar is being undermined as a reserve currency due to the theft of foreign reserves directed by state.
Germany is staring down deindustrialization as its input costs soar. They’re talking about rationing energy to industry by shutting down factories.

You should get in touch with the German trade union and tell em it’s a good thing. They won’t be getting ground up in the industrial machines no more. Maybe they can adopt a ‘sharing economy’ and start renting rooms out in their houses or ferry people around in their cars for 12-16 hours like we do here ?

Seems like they should be happy to make the trade to preserve the Ukraine swindle where any company having over 50 employees and a board had a US senators fail child collecting a paycheck for a no show job. There was more than the Biden’s dipping their beaks in that neonazi cess pit. Now a bastion of liberal democracy once Russian tanks crossed its borders…

Could be high time they transitioned to permacultural practices in farming (avoiding most of the diesel costs), nutrients from composting, syngas for heating from pyrolysis (no more big profits from natural gas given to useless children), carbon returned to the soil from the atmosphere via biochar produced during pyrolysis, and new manufacturing of bioenergy/biochar equipment.

Looks like an opportunity for a win-win-win-win-win situation!

Jesus what a wall of text. And all to say that life in Russia is great and the world is in a sorry state.

For many years Putin allowed Westernization and a modicum of press freedom and opposition. You might say the Eye of Sauron was elsewhere.

Then came the crackdown. An entire generation(who have known no other leader besides Putin) are frantically trying to get out of Russia. Navalny, who led the opposition was poisoned and then jailed. Anyone protesting the war is being jailed. There is a new iron curtain.

Running a drywall screw machine for 16 hours a day doesn't appeal much to them.

As for the sorry state of the world, we are but fellow travelers, here for threescore and ten.


Now here we agree. But historically that has seldom been the case. Prosperity comes and goes, governments come and go.

But it has now become possible for governments everywhere to modernize, computerize, and exist solely to improve the lives of their citizens.

That they exist instead as greedy money-grubbing whores for industry is a situation that future generations will have to change.

Some amount of that is unavoidable and always has been.
But when it becomes laser-focused and driven by enormous concentrations of wealth against the backdrop of turbocharged wealth inequality and paired with an authoritarian chopping block of identitarian fundamentalism, it's fascism.

We're staring fascism right in the face right here, right now.
And it's not because a handful of soldiers sported a wolfsangel tattoo, which by the way has yet to be found on any of these so called "Ukrainian Nazis" (aka dead civilians)
some folks speak of incessantly.

WARNING: GRAPHIC PHOTO

A photo of Ukrainian civilians killed in a Russian mortar strike highlights the toll of war

Industrialists are trying to stave off the inevitable.

That's as good a name for it as any I suppose...

Fascism is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and the economy


But authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and the economy takes many forms.

Pretty near all of them revolve around a strong man of some sort and pretty near all of them eventually fall apart when the strong men die or are deposed.

Yeah, mebbe.
Finishing a job for a regenerative farmer. A long but interesting discussion. They’ll be in a better position to withstand what’s coming pretty much because of what you said. There inputs are a lot lower compared to the commodities farming.
His view of the expected hard times to come for those operations is more opportunities for further consolidation. He looks at that activity as more of a property acquisition and management operation that pencils out if it’s organized as a commercial farm activity.
But I agree with you about farming as a key to global warming. Inputs as well as activity. Biochar one of many.

Ok. I can cut to the chase. Sorry if I’m being wordy.

I think your spouting nonsense about the situation of Russia and backing your claims of a few thousand exiled is ridiculous. Sanctions are consolidating public opinion behind Putin.
You don’t have to love him to say that, you just have to read an opinion poll. Same as Europe. How silly I didn’t read from thousands of exiles. Say, that must have been hard work. How’d you manage that?

I thought it would be polite to explain why but I guess I’ll stick to opinions and keep it short for now on.

Of course they are because Putin has no opposition and controls ALL the news in Russia.

Public opinion in Russia seems to be that Ukraine was the invader. Just because Russians believe they are fighting a desperate war for their survival and they support their fearless leader is nonsense. That thousands of Russians are fleeing the oppressive yoke of Putin's leadership means nothing to you? That the youngest and brightest are leaving for greener pastures means nothing? Only the indoctrinated remain. All opposition has been vanquished and Putin is expanding his borders through force.

I want to feel sorry for him like you do and I want all those Putinites in Russia to be happy cutting drywall screws until they fall over dead so the very wealthy can hoard more yachts.

But Putin is not conquering the Ukrainian people so he can make their lives better.

He's doing it to serve industry and amass more wealth at the expense of Russians and Ukrainians alike.

Nonsense? Maybe. Perhaps in your walls of text you could try to convince me I'm wrong.

Thus far you mostly reinforce what I already believe.

You haven't convinced me I'm wrong about Clinton yet and you aren't liable to convince me that poor Vlad was forced into this corner and had no choice but to attack Ukraine because of Western aggression and failure to yield to his demands.

Russia is a pissant nation trying to leverage its petroleum supply here at the end of the Petroleum Age. It is Russia that needs to yield(or compromise) not the West.

From Price Wars by Rupert Russell.
I was not aware of this gas and oil discovery and if anything this explains Donbas and getting the ring around from Donbas to Odessa to get Control of the Black Sea oil there.

Your contempt for blue collar jobs and the families that were supported by them are noted. The broader implication remains. We are a financialized economy now and not an industrial economy. That makes us vulnerable, especially to certain import realities. But keep dreaming of your techno utopia future just over the horizon. As someone who grew up in an area of the country that suffered the economic shocks of planned deindustrialization, Ive heard that condescending language for years now.

Anyway, I find all this heart sleeve yammering just so much repeating of corporate propaganda. We’re assisting in a genocide with a true authoritarian monarchy so spare me the ‘but the poor fleeing Russians. Whose thinking of those Russians!!!’’ And screw the phoney whataboutism the usual hypocrites throw up.

The fact is we have zealots running state for decades that have their very publicly stated aim of preserving ‘full spectrum global dominance’. An insane theory that is running into the contradictions of the last 40 years of neoliberal economics. The screw cutting machine was a small example of a large problem. Wait till we get going with China. We don’t make s*** anymore to the ruin of working classes and even middle classes. The ruling classes seem not to understand this correctly.



I thought it was about the Voldemort and the protocols of the elders of Zion? That’s what was making it all so emotionally personal for you as the son a German Jewish immigrants, iirc.

Are you now saying it’s got more than one dimension?

Cancelling Nordstream 2 was a multi administration objective that’s been accomplished now. Yeah, there’s a lot going on in the Ukraine.

Should we talk about the Biden’s involvement yet or is that still verboten. The corporate press has lifted its media blackout. One wonders at the timing of that.

Just to keep things in perspective, or attempt to anyhow, here’s a couple lazy links to the natural gas resource comparisons of Ukraine and Russia:

Natural gas in Ukraine

Natural gas in Russia

Considering Russia’s proven reserves are massive in comparison to whats in or around Ukraine, I don’t think Russia needed to go to war with its neighbor for petro reserves as it already controls the global gas markets.

I’m still leaning on NATO expansion to Russia’s borders, installing weapons systems into those expanded countries, NATO’s commitment to Ukraine joining NATO, the following 2014 maidan coup, the shelling for 8 years of the breakaway republics that resulted from that coup, NATO training of Ukranian forces during those eight years and goading by the US to invade those two breakaway regions.

I think Russia’s national security interests trumped any petro market interest that they already control by virtue of having the largest gas reserves in the world. Looks like a weak hand to me.

Putin's aims are simple to understand. It has little to do with NATO expansion or petroleum reserves, except tangentially. He imagines himself as the savior of the Russian Empire. He wants to be Tsar.

The Soviet Union was the successor-in-interest of Tsarist Russia, and Putin was a true believer. He has said so on multiple occasions, including in his invasion speech. He views Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova, Belarus, Poland and the Baltic states as part of Russia.

He views the entire west as his rivals, thus he will do anything to undermine them. Ukraine is a particular store spot because they know him best, and they offer an alternative vision. He hates them for their freedoms, for their prosperity, and for their independence. This is a personified affront to him.

Yes, he covets Ukraine's resources, but only to bolster Russia's place in the world as a "great power". He hates NATO because it is effective. He will remain a menace as long as he is alive.

Yet another ‘they hate us for our freedoms!’ speech. Can’t believe someone would troy that tired line out for the umpteenth time.

If we don’t fight them over there we’ll have to fight them here, etc, etc..

Ukraine’s GDP is one of the few former Soviet eastern bloc countries to have shrunk since the collapse of the Soviet union. It’s been one of the most politically corrupt regions to boot. Neocons have never stopped their Cold War with Russia and wrecking Ukraine is simply collateral damage.


I see the neocon Jake Sullivan was implicated in the Russiagate hoax while the mother goddess and DNC had to pay fines for lying about commissioning that Steel Dossier out of campaign finances. Say, where’s that neocon now?

Who wants to talk about the Biden’s families corrupt ties to the Ukraine? Ain’t you a lawyer NWP? What’s it all mean? Why’d the corporate press unanimously squawk ‘classic Russian Disinformation’ when the NY post reported on it last November? Why are the corporates now admitting the laptop was real while memory holing their earlier false reporting of the story? Timings very interesting… What else could the corporate press be misleading citizens about?

Anybody?

I guess it’s only the red team that does corruption in blue team red team land… only the red teams press is phony and bias?

Reports from the foreign press are leaking out that there’s official NATO advisors holed up in the steel works of Mariupol with them their azov ‘freedom fighters’. If so, is Jeff gunna admit that Ukraine was a little pregnant after all?

My friend you are so persistent in thoroughly missing the point. We're going to fight them. Not because we want to, but because they won't stop. Count on it. The advantage to the United States is simply that US cities will not be the battleground burning.

My friend I’ve come to the conclusion your an Atlanticist spouting its propaganda. Similar propaganda that gets used in every run up to war.

Wars that are now viewed as mistakes but said to have ‘seemed like a good idea at the time’.

You were also a major Russophobia promoter with that Russiagate hoax IIRC. Why should your views of the current geopolitical crises have more merit than your promotion of Russiagate conspiracies?

Here’s a real one speaking truth in the EU parliament.



The man doing the ‘my friend your acting crazy’ faces is the MP Angel Dzhambazki from Bulgaria.

Here he is a day earlier leaving parliament:



I’m guessing who’s camp your supporting between the two. As for myself, Leftists don’t support Fascists.

All too often with humans there are no good choices.

I don’t know how we have survived as a species…

Who’s this ‘we’?

The civilized world. This IS WWIII, and we need to recognize that.

Putin is a psychopath and megalomaniac. Platitudes won't change that. I'm no war monger, but I can see reality. Do you think Putin will stop at the Donbas, or all of Ukraine? Did Hitler? Did Stalin? What do you think this war is about?

Pffftt… I’m not a war monger but HITLER!!!

The bones and guts just got scraped off the tarmac of the Kabul airport from our last neocon clusterf#ck and there running their next program of military adventurism in the Ukraine.

Fancy lad boobs like Kagan and Frum who probably don’t have a clue how to change their motor oil (they’ll always have a serf do it) but have the unjustified confidence in their ‘full spectrum global dominance’ convictions and competence. Not at all megalomaniac.

This war in the Ukraine is a long neocon project to Balkanize the former Soviet Union and Russia in particular. After which the lane will be free to go after China will be my guess.

I’ve always wondered about that Russiagating propaganda and in light of what’s been unfolding, I’m convinced, besides saving a candidates face for an awful campaign performance, it was being used to shape public perceptions for the long game of Russia’s Balkanization.

I have no doubt the Crystals, Kagans, Applebaums, Blinkens etc have the largest war boners for WW3. Probably why our State department refused to negotiate a security agreement back in December and the start of this thread. Why is the state department always stocked with neocon children of Eastern European descent? No end of trouble from them with their old world family grudges.

The problem with that ‘all gas, no brakes’ approach is your just as likely to drive into a telephone poll as you are at maintaining your illusions of ruling the world.

Lo-test is running at $4.35, Diesel’s at $5.50. Foods only got one way to go now.

Can’t wait for the China second act.

"We could potentially see the loss of more than 7 million barrels per day of Russian oil and other liquids exports, resulting from current and future sanctions or other voluntary actions," said OPEC's Secretary-General Mohammad Barkindo, Reuters reported, citing a copy of his speech.

"Considering the current demand outlook, it would be nearly impossible to replace a loss in volumes of this magnitude," Barkindo told the EU, per Reuters.

OPEC has told the EU it's 'nearly impossible' to replace Russian oil


The fact that OPEC has to tell the EU the realities of what their sanctions have done to themselves speaks volumes about the competency of the EU politicians.

No, I don’t think these fancy lads gave much thought to the consequences of sanctioning a G20 commodities super power. One would think the first question asked would be if you need what they have more than they need what you have.

It would appear that Austrian chancellor Nehammer came up empty with his hoped for secret meeting with Putin. It’s widely rumored that the trip was done at the request of German chancellor Scholz. It’s looking like some leaders in Europe are getting nervous about what’s been done in the last few weeks of sanctions. Maybe destroying their economies for US neocons wasn’t such a good idea and they are looking to get off the crazy train? If so, I think it may be to late. Too much speed now to jump.

My observation is that suddenly high fuel costs and inflation in general are initiated by “investor” speculation. That starts the dominoes falling for real inflation.

It’s a natural progression when an economy is based primarily on money and gambling and not on real things. We have a culture best summed up in one word… MOAR!

My question: Is this an incurable human psychological disorder?

It’s clear in many cases that mistakes/bad choices were made in several recent U.S. wars, most obviously the invasion of Afghanistan on the pretext of “getting” Bin Laden via military might, and the even more stupid invasion of Iraq “just cuz” - a stunningly close parallel to Putin’s invading Ukraine (Project for a New American Century ring any bells?)

What the appropriate U.S. response to Putin’s actions should be is not so clear, and the three general choices available all have serious downsides - sanctions, full scale war, or let him take what he wants. Negotiations are a thought exercise only, given that Putin is an unapologetic aggressor with a goal of conquest - the forgone outcome would be #3 above.

Ok, you want the problem solving strategy session discussion. Fine. I’ll go along though having one makes little difference to this reality unfolding and the battle to win it. what’s real being waged right now in the western media.

Bearing in mind most everyone here is talking in Hollywood narratives, IMO, in one of the worst information environments. In short, which Putin are we talking about. Russiagaters ‘Vlad the election impaler’, neocons Vlad is Hitlerstalin and must be destroyed? Or is it Chicken Noodle News Putin, a bumbling incompetent when it comes to modern ware fare. Has suffered more loss from NATO’s proxy, Ukraine, than they did fighting Field Marshall Manstein in the same space of time during the Second World War? Or will we confine it to anything that’s verifiable and tied to reality? First hand diplomatic accounts, political agreements, etc..

How about the third choice of your framed 3 choices? What did Putin publicly state to the world on the eve of invasion?

Knowing what someone wants should be understood before you can have an opinion?

I watched Putin's speech. It reminded me quite a lot of the BushCo regime's sales pitch for invading Iraq.

Did you get some other sense from what he said?

No. When did he say regime change in his speech? Please be specific.

I heard him say denazify and demilitarize. Im not much interested in senses. I’m paying attention to the ground realities and unambiguous statements.

Meanwhile, the objective to denazify the sourthern region, specifically Mariupol, are all but concluded. The envelope Mentz of the main Ukraine forces on the East are complete. It looks like mopping up now in Mariupol and after some rest and refitting the DPR units as well as Chechen and Russian fighters will probably be joining the all out battle that’s about to begin.

I guess Ricks statements about the Chechen forces going home were premature. As always, it’s a game of who’s selling, who’s buying and who’s trying to understand the truth of the reality.

Here’s a West Point lecture from 3 years ago to describe ‘the Russian way of war’. The most pertinent points start at 26:00.




I guess Dr. Karber didn’t realize how poorly maintained, degraded and incompetent the Russian military has gotten from how the Corp news is reporting it in the NATO-sphere...

[url=https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=1578&v=_CMby_WPjk4&feature=youtu.be][/url]

Here’s Jacque Boad, a former senior NATO military advisor, Swiss army security advisor and former senior intelligence officer in charge of the Warsaw Pact forces during Soviet times. He describes his role on small arms control in the Dunbass region as well as recruitment programs for the Ukranian army while working for NATO. His assessment of the run up to Russia’s invasion and the US’s broader program of crippling Russia to then go after China is interesting and scans for me.

Aaron Mate and Max Blumenthal are on the left politically. They’ve done an excellent job of having guests on from all political sides to discuss this crises. I’m glad there are some out there still doing good journalism and interviews.

I guess he didn't. But, then, that was 3 years ago.

Are you paying attention to his merciless and ambiguous bombing the holy s*** out of everything and everyone in the pursuit of his noble, unambiguous objectives in a foreign country?

If it isn't the US doing it, he doesn't care.

Is Noomie back?

Much respect to Patrick Lancaster doing very good independent coverage of what’s happening to ordinary people in the Donbas war zone.
Really appreciate him able to speak with them in their native language and lets them speak for themselves. Their experiences, how they feel about the government, what’s happening to them, etc.. Lancaster seems to be committed to the truth as they tell it.

“ Are you paying attention to his merciless and ambiguous bombing the holy s*** out of everything and everyone in the pursuit of his noble, unambiguous objectives in a foreign country?”

Brudder please. I’ve grown up in America where we’ve bombed the sh!t out of everything and everyone in pursuit of our noble cause.

Likewise, we’re you paying attention to the past 8 years of shelling by Ukraine forces into civilian areas of the breakaways?

Always the same. Worthy and unworthy victims.

So I take it your for more escalation. Got it.

According to this French news interview, it just may be an American proxy war as has been suggested before..



FRENCH JOURNALIST DESCRIBES TIME IN UKRAINE

What is C-News?
And why is it on BitChute?
Yeah, hard pass, thanks.

“ Politicians, pundits and corporate media all tell us to “stand with Ukraine” and to call Putin a war criminal. American presidents are never connected to war crimes, even when they invade Iraq and kill thousands of people, destroy Libya and kill thousands of people, or enact sanctions and steal government assets that kill thousands of people. The war criminal category is only deemed appropriate for leaders the U.S. doesn’t like.”

U.S. liberals are the worst perpetrators of Russophobic behavior

BAR calling it like it is, as they always do.

Some of the interesting information that came out of Mariupol was the anger and resentment you read from Azov battalion about being mislead and abandoned by Kiev. Posts on Twitter and the Azov Facebook account in particular. The breakout attempt by units trying to head north where their was Ukranian support looked doomed and ill advised. Throwing what was left of their armored transport in the lead and using civilian vehicles to try to transport troops in the wake only resulted in more killed and captured Ukranians.
Pure speculation but much of the comments of Azov being mislead or betrayed may not be just coming from anger and desperation. What if it’s true?
Recall Zelensky’s election victory came with a mandate to improve relations with Russia and end the civil war in the east. Once in office, however, he quickly found out that any movement in that direction would wind up getting his throat slit by the far right (dare we say nazi) political faction surrounding him and still are. They were unambiguous with their threats of violence if he dared move in any direction towards negotiating a peace settlement.
So if your Zelensky looking for a way out of the mess, caught between the US and its nato trained fascists on one side and the Russian, DPR and LPR troops on the other how heck do you find a way to the negotiating table with a knife at your throat?
Would removing that knife help? Maybe it’s not so bad to be rid of the military wing of the Nazis?
Pure speculation here. Could just be simple incompetence of western military advisors not understanding the war that’s being fought. Lord knows there’s plenty of recent record for that. Zelensky also has the fascists in his immediate circle to deal with. But his willingness to agree to Russia’s terms in the Turkey negotiations, statements of anger at the west lack of negotiating on their behalf makes me wonder at those Azov posts. As Parenti always asks - ‘who’s benefitting’?

You mean this? Donbas region. No, I haven’t. Actually, I couldn’t find anything related to “… shelling by Ukraine forces into civilian areas…”
You are too eager to mischaracterize my statements into things that fit your need for argument. I have not taken any position, except to say that I see no upside or justification to what is going on. I would say that Putin’s invasion is clearly an act of escalation, do you agree?

My question is what is an appropriate response, as I stated earlier. I could assume what your opinion is, but prefer that you tell us in your own words… what is an appropriate response to Putin’s invasion?

Bruno is a freelance correspondent that currently writes for the French newspaper La Figaro.

A full report is due out from him. Possibly today.

Not bothering to explain bit-chute. Stay with your trusted brands would be my advice. They’re doing youmans work of weeding out anything uncomfortable for you. Not letting anything dirty get thru..

I have responded to your question of what should be the response. This whole thread has been a response.
You can’t expect a serious discussion on this crises without context. I have been given my understanding of the context for the current crises much of which has been met with derision, insult or denial.

Yes, much of the past years news coverage had been swamped by the current deluge of news coming out related to ‘Donbas’, ‘shelling’, ‘civilians’ etc… Combined with the very public pronouncements of media platforms and search engine platforms, selectively weeding out any information that cuts against the media/government narratives, we now have one of the most difficult information environments to navigate. As I’ve stated earlier.


But this is old news. I’ve have given plenty of links from a broad political spectrum on this crises, covering ground that seems to be unbroken by you. The fact that you haven’t paid attention to this area of long-standing conflict does not mean that it hasn’t been covered or discussed.

Here’s one of our best Russian experts calling it years ago. Sadly, he wax ridiculed and discredited by the neocons and liberals who’ve gone all in on Russophobia.



What specifically about deescalation is confusing?

Stop sending arms, allow Zelensky to negotiate a peace and save the lives of the remainder of his military. Stop US interference in that process.

Nah gunna happen. The American Neocons are fanatics and won’t allow it. Do you know what a neoconservative is and what they believe?

I showed you mine, you gunna show me yours now?

Yeah, maybe it's a matter of how dirty you want to get your hands while weeding through the relevant news. Maybe I'm missing a few viewpoints and radical European views, Maybe I'm not digging deep enough and sorting through enough random obscure journalists reporting on random obscure facts gathered from random obscure former something-or-others.

I'm not sure I know what you want me to do with all this information?

I have the power to vote every two years. Beyond that, it's just political theater that doesn't affect me in the slightest and that I haven't the slightest chance of changing.

Perhaps your opinions are better informed and more valuable than mine. But you have exactly the same power to change things that I do. Vote early and vote often if you hope to change the world.

Looks like Sweden and Finland are going to join NATO and force Russia to spend billions fortifying another border with nuclear weapons. Poor poor Russia beleaguered at every front...nothing to do but bomb the sh*t out of everybody.

I still have yet to see ANY Nazis being frog marched out of Ukraine.
I see tons of dead kids, grandmothers, mothers, teachers, doctors.... even dead dogs and cats.
Are they the Nazis Putin keeps talking about?

La figaro is a two hundred year old news publication employing Bruno as a foriegn correspondent. Sorry if you didn’t like the wrapper the interview came in.

You’ve asked that already. I’ve answered
You don’t see Nazis as I recall.
Russiagaters all seem to have this affliction. Odd that..

Charlotte.. no problem
Ukraine… never heard of em

Happy birthday to them! Still, random and obscure. Perhaps their articles are better informed and better written than the articles in other news publications. It's unlikely you'd approve of any news source I might link.

You already told me that the plight of Russians in Russia as reported in some other news publication by some other reporter was spouting nonsense. Yet your 200 year old French news publication trumps all and must be taken as the truth. Spare me.

It's a two-way street. I'm willing to meet you in the middle but first you have to admit there is a middle.

La figaro random and obscure?

Ok then.

I said ‘may prove’ not ‘does prove’. It’s a provoked war. Some claims will never be proven, some will. Only a fool would say one report proves without doubt.

‘ Le Figaro (French pronunciation: ?[l? fi?a?o]) is a French daily morning newspaper founded in 1826 and published in Paris.[9] It is the oldest national newspaper in France and one of the three French newspapers of record, along with Le Monde and Libération.[9]’

Wikipedia

You really should be embarrassed with that remark but I doubt you will be.

Most of them are. Every bloodthirsty tyrant who has ever amassed forces to attack a neighbor had provocation of some sort. Usually economic.

Yes, NATO kept poking and poking at Vlad Putin until he just couldn't take anymore and bombing the sh*t out of Ukraine was the only possible solution. Just as bombs must be put in place to use against Finland and Sweden.

No one is guiltless but only one is holding the smoking gun.

As always, I'm more concerned with the future than the past. It's not how we got ourselves into this that matters, but how we get out of it.

Or in the case of World Wars...if we get out of it.

I'm stocked up on weed, if the bombs start to fall tomorrow I'll stay high until the radiation sickness kills me.

Or as is more likely, life will continue pretty much as usual here in sunny Central Florida and I will read with shock more reports of Russian atrocities and the stoic and heroic defense of the Ukrainian homeland just as others have read reports in other countries about other wars as they went about their daily business.

There is some kernel of truth to every story, but trying to absorb it all and make sense of it is way above my pay grade. I'm just a simple carpenter.

Agreed. Times of weed and no money are better than money and no weed.

Yeah. Life has taught me to get all sides of the story and question authority. It’s why I go beyond Ukranian spokespeople being filtered, amplified and repeated by our media.

A media proven itself to be a willing partner complicit in selling rumor as fact and picking good guys and bad guys since broad sheets were first produced.

One of the watering holes from Helmers ‘Dances with Bears’ that I drink at had an interesting article about ‘where do we go from here’. The longest serving independent news outlet operating in Moscow since the Soviet era. I’d link but if it’s another Russiagate circle jerk that everyone insists the rant be, who the h#ll am I to refuse it.

I’ll stick to the economic ramifications. Little more cut and dry.

What’s that Silicon Valley disruption slogan?

Move fast and break things?

Sounds about right for our state dept:

Inflation rose at fastest pace in 40 years

How do you de-escalate an invasion by a lunatic that has entered your country with a large military force and is Indiscriminately destroying it?

It sounds like you think we forced Putin into a corner and he is therefor justified in his actions, and will respond to rational negotiations if only given the chance. I doubt that.

I have said multiple times that it is a no-win situation, and there are no good choices. You have said multiple times that I support warring with Russia - perhaps you know my mind better than I do?

And, I have opened all of your links and am not persuaded of anything by any of them.

https://readerrant.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=250015#Post250015

And I’ve never been persuaded by any of your musing and characterizations.
You seem to have made up your mind on Putin. Good for you!

As far as you ‘what is truth?’ link, whats gas doing around you? How much they getting for potash?

You mention that the war was provoked... can you describe what provocation occurred that justifies military invasion of another country and war crime levels of indiscriminate destruction?

One of the links I provided to you avers that Russia has been provoking Ukraine in the Donbas region ever since Crimea was appropriated... was Crimea a provocation as well?

Fuel prices are high, due so far entirely to speculation (ain't Capitalism grand?), but not at historic highs adjusted for inflation - energy prices are unrealistically low, anyway. Time to get real and smart. As for potash, why would I give a rat's ass about that?

Up until a couple of weeks ago, two groups agreed that Russia is the real victim in all of this: The extreme Right (Trumpers) and the extreme Left.

Now two lawmakers, a senator (Steve Daines) and a representative (Victoria Spartz) will visit Ukraine.
One of them, Ms. Spartz, is a Ukrainian immigrant.
Both are Republicans...shocker?

Daines is among ELEVEN senators who attempted to support overturning the 2020 election results, but he stopped short and reversed his position on counting Montana's votes.
For Spartz, the Russian invasion of Ukraine is rather personal, and she had been in the process of planning a personal trip there anyway when the opportunity for an official visit was realized.

It will be very interesting to see how much pressure two Republicans can put on the pro-Putin wing of the GOP, who aren't even trying to hide their true feelings about democracy anymore.

I suppose I COULD bemoan the fact that no Democrats in Congress had scheduled a trip, but then again, I do not know if Zelenskyy invited any from that party.
He might have felt he could drive his point home better if Republicans saw the war firsthand, since he already knows he enjoys Democratic Party support.

Is Chunks really saying that Russia is the victim here? That's the way it looks, but he's being awfully coy about saying it plainly.

I wonder why he doesn't just say it? Myself, I can't get my mind around what could justify invading another country and blowing the shiit out of everything, including civilians, schools, apartment buildings, hospitals, etc., even if if that country did it to you first.

And somehow the U.S. forced Putin to do this? So we could get in a war with Russia? It's been a month and a half, what're we waiting for if that was the objective?

Is there a Leftist Q-Anon?

I never mentioned him, but allow me to say that the amazing part about the whole steaming pile of drivel is that, not knowing who is speaking, I couldn't tell if it's coming from the far right or far left. The Venn diagram is now a perfect circle.

As for a "leftist" version of Qanon, take a look at what passes for "the wellness community" today.
No, not the size, reach and power, just the foundational values, which have always bordered on cringeworthy.
It was originally the wellness morons who started the whole chemtrails/HAARP/5G extravaganza and it was the wellness community who were FIRST-FIRST-FIRST! with vaccine hysteria, long before COVID.

Should we try for a Democratic Party version of Trump?
That's easy too!
Lyndon LaRouche.

Meh, liberal Russiagaters always despise being challenged from the left. I believe it insults their vanity.

How come you Russiagaters stopped talking about it as soon as team blue won the presidency? Hate to think you were making it all up…

Did the walls close in? Have the other shoes dropped? All that huffing and puffing dropped like a hot rock. Hmmm…

Smelled phoney to me then. Even more now. Same people too!

What’s a Russiagater? I don’t know the secret code words.

Again, extreme Right and extreme Left both say that Trump was NOT guilty of "collusion with Russia", or at least that's what I THINK it's about.
I find the catch-phrase slinging confusing as well.
For instance, what's the Voldemort nonsense about? I watched Hairy Plopper one time with the kids and barely remember it.
Am I being accused of casting Putin as Voldemort?
Putin's not Voldemort, he's Putin...he doesn't NEED an alternate avatar anymore than "Joe Steel" (Stalin) did.

Did Voldemort try to declare war on the entire free world or something?
Does Voldemort hate democracy?
PS: I'm still looking for the MILLIONS OF NAZIS in Ukraine and so far I just see a bunch of young and strong knuckleheads who
were probably impressed by the Hugo Boss uniforms and the scary looking tattoos.

Here, in OUR military, they seem a lot more serious about playing Nazi.
But I could be wrong, perhaps the Azov wing of Ukraine's military is indeed rife with a few thousand misguided knuckleheads who have
yet to get the memo.

But they don't look like twenty year old college coeds or eighty year old grandmothers, which is what's littering the streets of Bucha today,
and not a single Nazi tat on any of them so far.

I think it might be a ‘woke’ thing, but I don’t really know what that is, either.

No, this insults our vanity.

The term "woke" is an alternate for "enlightened".
Of course, the moment you claim enlightenment be advised that all manner of folks emerge from the woodwork claiming they too are enlightened.

Most of the people screeching their heads off about "woke" are the ones who USED to call liberals sheep, while outdoing them at behaving like sheep, which of course isn't surprising.
Once again that Venn diagram is in danger of becoming a circle...can't tell who is attacking because it sounds like it could be either extreme Left or extreme Right.

We're someone's sheep, I guess, but we're woke sheep?

You have a bad habit of speaking for others. Do me a favor and speak for yourself if you would please.

Here’s a lazy search result for ‘Ukraine’ ‘shelling’ ‘Donbas’:

From UN report 2015- Close to 8,000 people killed in eastern Ukraine, says UN human rights report

You say you can’t find any information of the shelling of civilians? Huh… odd…

You seem to have difficulty with events leading up to the civil war in the Ukraine and the subsequent military intervention (I’ll use the US parlance of invasion here). That’s ok Logs. Everyone has there strong suits. Yours may be biochar. We’re all different.

So if there’s ever a hostile government on our border, shelling communities aligned with us politically and killing thousands from that shelling all the while the hostile party would be trying to join a military organization hostile to our country you’d be ok with that. Uh huh… sure…

Russia in the Donbas region fomenting war and killing Ukrainians. Being "provoked" (your term) into invading Ukraine with maximum military force and devastation, by the U.S., no less.

Sounds reasonable... if you are fukking insane.

https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1514766062771875851


Julia Davis
@JuliaDavisNews
Kyiv sank 'Moscow' and the Russians are furious. In response to the sinking of the warship 'Moskva,' state TV pundits and hosts propose bombing Kyiv, destroying Ukraine's railways and making it impossible for any world leaders to visit in the future.



Impossible to visit in the future...I may be dumb but I think that means something about an environment dangerous to human life altogether.

You mean like if we "annex" Baja California by force, evict, starve or kill ALL Mexican nationals, move in a few hundred thousand white Christian fundamentalists and claim that Baja was always part of America anyway?

You seem to need to mischaracterize and charactour

It’s a civil war by 2015. My ‘sense’ of you is you only woke up to the situation when it escalated to a Russian invasion (excuse me, military operation) in early March. What led the civil war logs? Your smart.

Or are you fukking retarded?

Jeeze Jeff,

Didn’t you convince yourself the people in eastern Ukraine shouldn’t be living there in the first place? Something about Voldemort and the famines and genocide makes Russian speaking peoples of eastern Ukraine illegitimate people? That they didn’t have a right to exist there or something like that?

Nope.

This you?

“ And when I hear Putin giving the reason for his war as "we're denazifying Ukraine" I actually hear "mumble mumble The Struggle against Kurkul Influence in Collective Farms".
Here's a fun fact:
Areas depopulated by the Holodomor famine were resettled by Russians in the Zaporizhzhya, Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts, but not as much so in central Ukraine.
Things that make you go Hmmmmmm.

One could almost say that the very ROOT events that BEGAN all the division of Ukrainian and "Russianized" Ukrainians stretch ALL the WAY BACK TO Holodomor.”

Where were you going with that one? Some loose suggesting to be sure but I have to wonder at the someone who denies there’s Nazis in Ukraine…

Aw Jeeze Jeff, even the Canadian press knew about Ukranian Nazis. And they should, they got a bit of a problem with some of the ww2 refugees that settled up there from Ukraine. Heck, their deputy prime minister’s granddad was kinda one.

From Oct. 2021: Far-right extremists in Ukrainian military bragged about Canadian training

From Nov 2021: Allegations of Canadian troops training neo-Nazis

Yet your unable to see any..
hmmmm….

Ro Khanna could see em in 2018:
Congress bans arms to Ukraine militia linked to neo-Nazis

He’s like you now though, Jeff . He doesn’t know what your talking about when he’s asked about it.

Al jazeerah sees em: Who are Ukraine’s far-right Azov regiment?

John Conyers seen em: U.S. lawmakers have voted to block ... a Ukrainian unit with neo-Nazi members

None of the russiagaters do…

How..odd..

Anyways. It doesn’t matter. We’re well past it being important and we all know now who will jump in bed with Nazis based on s fairytale meant to frame a lost election election from a poor campaign. Sad but here we are.

The civil war was between the Ukrainian government and Russia backed separatists.

After all the exchange in this topic, you still haven’t given a reason why Putin is justified in a massive, indiscriminately destructive military invasion into Ukraine. Or why Russia was a major player in the civil war.

I take your avoidance of answering simple questions, and emotional sensitivity accompanied by odd personal insults, to be evidence that your worldview of the situation is seriously gaslighted.

“There have been claims that the EU can make it through the summer even if gas imports from Russia are cut because there is enough gas in storage. Still, Brussels has stopped short of imposing an embargo on Russian gas, with Germany admitting it cannot afford one.“

U.S. Natural Gas Prices To Spike As Exports Boom

You’ve become tedious yet again Logs.
You do what you always do. Run out on the field blowing a referee’s whistle and then proceed to have a bad faith argument. I have given multiple reasons from senior state diplomats as to the reasons why this invasion occurred and could have been avoided.

You claimed to have open said links and found nothing convincing. Former Russian ambassadors, NATO intelligence officers, career diplomats, nope. Logs saw nothing of merit cept his own personal belief that ‘Putin bad’. ‘Putin Lies’

Oddly, Russian policy expert Gilbert Doctorow’s article that I lead with at the start of this thread (well before the invasion, err military peace keeping mission for domestic readers) predicted just this sort of thing as the likely outcome. Must be something Doctorow is able to understand and your incapable of Logs. Looks like an inherent problem of yours I’m not qualified to help you with.

I’ll end this doomed conversation with you by saying it’s no ones job to justify Russia’s invasion of Ukraine to you. Understanding why and the circumstances surrounding it seems a better use of your time.

Understanding does not mean justifying. Is that a concept you can grasp or does comprehension equate to justification?

As far as RUSSIA’s justification, I believe it was the UN’s article 51.

That’s not me invoking article 51. That’s Russia.

See the difference Logs?

Weird... must be 'the fog of gaslight...'

I ask questions seeking clarification and understanding, and given no straight answers, I'm written off as stupid and uncomprehending.

Go figger.

No. Explain...

Me telling you that is what Russia did doesn’t require me to justify it for you.

Your dog crapping in your neighbors lawn and he repeatedly tells you he’s gunna stomp your dog and you keep promoting the crapping around, resulting in his stomping your dog, makes his actions understandable without having to justify his action.

I would have argued it would be best to not let your dog crap in his lawn. But that’s just me. Others would argue about the dogs inalienable rights, the freedom of dogs to be able to choose where to crap, etc, etc,

There’s also the thought that maybe you just hate your neighbor and don’t really care about the dog.

One could ponder how you’ve treated other dogs. Maybe you have a history of dog mistreatments. Recent examples in fact. Heck, you might even be a kind of dog mistreatment fanatic. Maybe you get off on seeing dogs fight and get stomped.

Or you could run around and start yelling your neighbor’s a lying maniac that hates your freedoms and is taking it out on your dog.

Anyhow, the current dog you’ve been walking is getting stomped and it would be good to see it stop.

I may be wrong but I'm going to assume that your avoidance of explanation means you don't have one.

I haven't managed to get a clear picture of who Chunks wants me to be mad at either.

Is it the UN? The US? NATO? The EU? The west? the east? the south? the King of the North Pole? Joe Biden? Trump? The Russiagate Hotel?

And I haven't got a clear picture of why it's okay to bomb the s*** out of Ukraine.

I've got a link to an ancient purveyor of Frankish propaganda with a conspiracy theory about something else I don't understand.

I'm sure it's my fault that I have no idea what the hell he's talking about and I accept the blame and the responsibility for that.

As far as NAZI types go, I imagine every military in the world has a contingent of them, that sort of mindset is often attracted to militarist endeavors to fulfill their dreams of glorious conquest and bloody mangled bodies.

Was it article 51 or area 51 I was supposed to Goodle?

Explain what again?

Russia’s motives to invade? An existential threat it perceived from NATOs expansion is what they’ve been saying.

Justification to bomb the crap out of your dog? I believe they’ve used UN article 51.

Who should you hate? Whoever you want. Your going to anyhow.

I personally hate war, empires and the neocon fanatics that have pushed for both. They will be the death of us. Oh, and bulllshitters.

Why do you all love war so much? How do you justify empire and domination and subjugation? Finally, why are you so racist over your deserving and undeserving victims of state violence?

If you'll show us all where I flat out said "There are NO NAZIS in Ukraine" <<<---- (that is what a denial would look like) your post might look a little more rational, especially for a person who is fluffing Putin's assertion that the Nazis pretty much control Ukraine and that it's literally crawling with them on every streetcorner, especially when not a single Nazi has been seen among the dead and now rotting corpses of women and children strewn across those streets today.

It looks like we can't even agree on facts as basic as the sky being blue or water being wet, so that might be a stretch, but here's something else to consider, because I want to acknowledge that there is a problem, but I think we should all try to put that problem in proper perspective.

The National Criminal Justice Reference Service (NCJRS) says that the Skinhead movement is active in 33 countries on six continents. It numbers some 70,000 youths worldwide, of whom half are hardcore activists and the rest supporters. The countries where Skinheads are found in the greatest numbers are Germany (5,000), Hungary and the Czech Republic (more than 4,000 each), the United States (3,500), Poland (2,000), the United Kingdom and Brazil (1,500 each), Italy (1,000 to 1,500), and Sweden (more than 1,000). France, Spain, Canada, and the Netherlands each have at least 500 Skinheads.

This 2014 article --- Ukraine crisis: the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists
(cached so it can be read here) says that it is indeed a serious error in judgment for Ukraine to have been unapologetic (at least in 2014 anyway) about accepting mercs and volunteers of the neo-nazi persuasion to help fight Russian forces in the Eastern regions of the country.



I simply maintain that we're looking at a much larger population of neo-Nazis here in the United States, and what's more, ours aren't even interested in defending the U.S. from outside invaders, they are on the side OF the would-be invaders.



Hmmmmm, that is indeed problematic, I agree.

APRIL 13, 2022 --- Tennessee State Senator Frank Nicely gives us all a "history lesson".



Is it time for Russia to denazify Tennessee?

If I didn't know any better I'd almost have to wonder if you're implying that the Jews were responsible for Holodomor. Is that what you're trying to say?


WIKI

In the 2019 Ukrainian elections, the far-right nationalist electoral alliance, including Svoboda, National Corps, Right Sector, Azov Battalion, OUN, and Congress of Ukrainian Nationalists, underperformed expectations. In the presidential election, its candidate Ruslan Koshulynskyi received 1.6% of the vote, and in the parliamentary election, it was reduced to a single seat and saw its national vote fall to 2.15%, half of its result from 2014 and one-quarter of its result from 2012.


If Ukraine is really overrun by neo-Nazis you'd think they would have performed better in the election that secured Zelenskyy's seat in power, and there'd be a far Right neo-Nazi in the presidency or at least an alarming majority in their legislature.
To the real world it looks a little bit more like Ukraine's neo-Nazi problem is about half the size of the problem we have in Anaheim, California.

But any port in a storm, right? If you can successfully blow this up into a convincing picture of a Ukraine overrun by skinheads, have at it but so far it sounds a lot more like you're just attacking Ukraine and defending Putin, at least from where I sit.

Show us the Nazi hordes overrunning Ukraine, storming the Ukrainian legislature and....maybe if you're lucky you could even find examples of Ukraine media extolling the virtues of Nazism. So far it seems to resemble all those pizzerias that harbor child sex slave operations in the basement.

Ukraine's military has a neo-Nazi problem...so does ours, so does our law enforcement, and up until November 2020, so did our White House, and we're STILL dealing with a very serious neo-Nazi problem with almost half our congress right now.
And you're barking up the wrong tree.
None of the reams of text you pounded out the last six months is going to age well...some of it's not aging well right now.
I'll step back and let history be the judge.

Where did I say Nazis have over run?

I’ll save you the time. I didn’t. But a bulllshitter doesn’t care much about accuracy.

Far better diplomats and strategists have described the fascist situation in Ukraine. I’ve linked to some counterpoint assessments of the persistent threat the fascist elements and your ‘look at the election results’ hand waving away the realities there. I’ll take their descriptions over yours. Hard pass.

But neocons have no compunction supporting fascist paramilitaries around the globe. It’s been interesting to watch liberals get on board now that they’re fellow travelers

I’m sure I haven’t addressed a good deal of your post. Sorry. Too long and rambling for me.

Can't recall anybody here saying that.


Nobody here trying to justify it.


Huh?

Sorry Gregor but if you want to mischaracterize my positions shouldn’t I be able to do the same?

I mean look at the unintelligible stuff coming from you guys. The lazy dribble and fascists loving support.

And as far as the covert racism goes, where was all the moralizing with Syria? Don’t recall it. I’m sorry your so offended by the color of the Syrians complexion to have said nothing about it. I didn’t enjoy killing Iraqis as you did so much.

Isn’t post modern reality fun? Though I do sometimes miss the days of Phil when a claim needed to be backed occasionally with a citation.

Still, didn’t realize you loved Nazis. Sorry I don’t why you like Nazis shelling the people of the Donbas . Is it cuz of the Voldemort times?

You and logs haven’t convinced me to stop hating Nazis.

I'm wondering how Putin used Article 51 to justify invading Ukraine multiple times. Russia is not even a member of NATO.

"But neocons have no comp...." ---- shee-it, you are now contradicting yourself in the same paragraph.
If Nazis, according to you, HAVE NOT overrun Ukraine then your comment about neocons (which ones?) supporting fascism is a contradiction.
Is this a Shrodinger fascism where it's fascist and NOT fascist at the same time?

What's with the TL;DR....we have to try to slog through your epic walls of text, most of which DWARF mine.
If you're not going to even bother reading then I see no point in debating with you.
TL:DR is the refuge of those with voluntary short attention spans and if you're going to treat this the way Flo's sister treats Flo's insurance pitches, at least admit that
you only "wanted ME to talk about insurance" for your own amusement.

What’s your definition of over run?
I’m wondering if a country needs to be over run to have rump political factions having an outsized influence in its politics.
Please be brief.

Meanwhile, and for the final time, anyone who doesn’t know about the long standing connections between the US state dept and far right paramilitary groups can take a stab at their keyboard and find out more than they’d want.

Hell, ol Dutch got his d!ck caught in his zipper when it was found out he was off book financing fascist death squads in his Central America dirty wars.

But that’s all in the past and NO WAY Congress would allow that to happen again. We got the war fanatics booted out of guvmint no doubt. With thriving anti colonialist left wing political parties that we have how could they.

No really there’s no reporting that’s ever been done describing fascists politics and military organizations and their impacts on Ukranian politics. Nope. None that I can find and boy did I go looking.

And thank goodness too! We all no Putinstalin is a as pathological liar and he was just crazy talking. There’s no point in discussing any of those claims.

C’mon chunks..just say it. Say Putin is evil chunks. He stole our elections, hates our freedom.

Harpers Jan 2021:

“ The militia first fought in the capital, then aided the military in battles against Russian-backed separatist forces, including the reconquest of the city of Mariupol. In November 2014, Azov was officially integrated into the National Guard of Ukraine, with its own armored units and artillery battery. Since then, it has built a wide-ranging infrastructure of civil and military groups—including the National Militia, an auxiliary police force—and spawned a variety of summer camps, training centers, and veterans’ programs. In 2016, Biletsky launched the National Corps. While they have thus far polled at around 1 percent, their failure to generate electoral enthusiasm belies their growing presence both on the streets and within the organs of the state.”

I could go on but what would be the point? You can’t argue with Nazi lovers.

You could replace “officially adsorbed into the national guard” to ‘officially recognized and accepted by the national guard’. But let’s use the word absorb. It sounds cleaner donut? Like a spill getting wiped up. All clean now

This you Jeff-

And I'm wondering if Putin laid out his Ukraine plans based on intel that assured him that there were formidable pro-Russian militia waiting for their peers in Z-outfits to show up only to discover that funding given to Ukraine pro-Russ got pocketed instead through grift.

MY definition of "overrun"?
I am not IN Ukraine so I am going to try using a domestic analogy.
147 members of Congress supporting the January 6 insurrection is "overrun" in my book.

I guess Putin can declare victory now, he's uncovered so many Nazi cells in Ukraine.

(WARNING: VERY graphic)

https://twitter.com/olex_scherba/status/1512650311885856772

I think I have enough information now to understand where you are coming from. I am sorry for your suffering and hope that you can find a cure.

I’ve enjoyed the usual problem solving strategy session with you too logs. Good luck with your battle with reality. Thanks for your link. Helps me understand you too now.

You have any evidence that Russia committed those crimes?

I’d like any details of any forensic investigation that is looking into this war crime if you have any.

India’s UN Security Council rep has asked for an independent investigation. Maybe you can save them the trouble Jeff and send your Twitter post. You seem convinced.

“ A senior Biden administration official recently admitted that prior to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the United States made no effort to address one of Vladimir Putin’s most often stated top security concerns — the possibility of Ukraine’s membership into NATO. ”

US refused to address Ukraine and NATO before Russian invasion

Well yeah… anyone paying attention saw this unfolding in real time. Hence the start of the thread

Portentous. Thirty pages into this topic and I’m still unclear about the arguments. Lots of assertions, suppositions, accusations, and ad hominem attacks - pardon the insensitive incongruity of the comparison, but it’s a little bit like the residents of Kyiv must feel when being indiscriminately bombed and shelled and killed for no apparent rhyme or reason.

The only explanation that makes any sense to me is that Putin is a delusional madman on a mission of dark fantasy - one that is orders of magnitude worse than what we humans normally indulge in.

So, blaming the victim?

“ The European Union and Russia are at risk of triggering a de facto embargo on Russian gas after the bloc’s lawyers drafted a preliminary finding that the mechanism President Vladimir Putin is demanding for payment in rubles would violate the bloc’s sanctions.…

…. If Russia follows through on its threat to cut off gas supplies to buyers that don’t comply, it poses a serious threat for the EU, which gets 40% of its gas from Russia. The bloc is scrambling to find alternative energy sources as it comes to terms with the outsize leverage Moscow has over its security, but the transition will take time. The EU is working on its sixth sanctions package, but moves to target Russian energy have been fraught given the bloc’s dependence.”

Putin’s Ruble Standoff With Europe Risks De Facto Gas Embargo

Economist Michael Hudson has been saying the true target of provoking this war was Europe and Germany in particular. While I have some reservations about that, it looks like Europe will be hitting a recession of unknown depth as sanctions continue.

As I look back at the last twenty years, the neocons have certainly left a trail of destruction in their wake.

On the other side of such a recession a variety of scenarios may emerge.
But expanded and future further dependence on Russian sources of energy is unlikely to be the top contender no matter how the present day circumstances are playing out.

In fact, should Russia decide to tilt to full scale war footing, they will have chosen to ultimately declare war on the entire free world.
Neither you or anyone can ever convince sane people of any political leaning that such a move is going to enhance the attractiveness of Russian energy sources for
any country in the world, even Russia's closest circle of friends.

Well… India and China are laying pipe for Russian gas. Last I looked, they represent a significant portion of the world.

But please, continue to moralize over the realities.

Reread the first post of this thread your blundering around in. It’s an admission that we weren’t taking Russia’s security concerns seriously and refused to negotiate.

The immediately victims are the combatants and civilians caught in the cross fire. The collateral damage will be the victims of these economic sanctions.

I prefer diplomacy myself, neocons prefer subjugation, empire and war from what I can tell. Off we go then.

Yes I am aware that those are the current circumstances.
I think I headed the preceding post with some careful utterances of

"On the OTHER SIDE OF such a recession"

Who knows, maybe Putin just decides to "declare the future sovereignty of Luhansk, Donetsk, Donbass now secure" and walks away.
Best case scenario? Acceptable to Zelenskyy? Acceptable to the rest of the world? That's anybody's guess, but even with such a relatively "benign" end game,
I cannot imagine investors in the West clamoring for a bright future association with a proven unstable partner.

Coming out of a full scale hissy fit, even if it were to remain "conventional" (as in NO NUKES) I imagine investors even more soured on the notion.
At some point, it's going to become so unattractive to deal with The World's Biggest Cootie that even if he face plants in a bowl of borscht this morning,
investors in most of the free world aren't even going to calm down until YEARS after they hear his final submerged death gurgle.

In fact, Putin going fully tits up with posies in a casket stirs morbid curiosity about what may arrive in his wake.
As far as the rest of the free world is concerned, we might as well be looking at Russia in the era of Leonid Breshnev as far as trade is concerned...

...for the foreseeable next seventy years.

And I said two of the largest economies of the world will be buying Russian gas. The rest of your post is all the usual speculation thru your Russiagating lens. Time will tell, providing things don’t go very wrong.

Ahh neocons. Dreaming of global domination by making the world free.

How’s Iraq, Libya or Syria these days? Member us being the good guy honest brokers then? Remember the ‘your either with us or against us’ neocons too.

It is becoming quite clear that in the end, if you take Putin's worldview seriously, you can't separate from something called "Russia's SECURITY concerns" anymore.
And that's because the worldview he has IS his idea of "security concerns", and his idea of security concerns is dismantling all forms of democratic rule everywhere.

You standing over in your corner screaming at everyone and calling us "NEOCONS" is a smokescreen, methinks.
I don't take your affinity for democracy seriously anymore.
You remind me of some East Germans I read about, who seem to express a somewhat comfortable affinity for authoritarian order.
The fact that yours springs demonstrably from a far Left position instead of far Right is irrelevant from where I sit, authoritarianism is authoritarianism and is antithetical to democracy either way.


So if your story is similar to the guy who used to play football with the KGB guys at the old house across the street in Dresden, that would be understandable.
As is your all consuming hatred of people who aren't far Left enough for you...the Venn Diagram has become a perfect circle now.

I get it, believe me I do.

Did you mean to say we weren’t taking Ukraine’s security concerns seriously enough?

I wonder if Putin would have invaded his neighbor (twice) if it had been a NATO member…

Considering the current situation in the Ukraine, no, we didn’t take Ukraine’s security seriously enough.

Do you prefer war or diplomacy logs?

Simple question. Which one?

I know Jeff’s answer already…

Simple answer - diplomacy.

Simple question. What happens when both sides won't engage honestly in diplomacy?

For instance, you appear more often to be an intransigent bully, less a diplomat. (Take a look at your comment about Jeffery above). My understanding of your logic is that we should simply acquiesce to all of your arguments and be good little diplomats.

(I think I know the general gist of your answer already...)

Am I Corey Feldman now?
I always thought I was Pernell Roberts.

An impasse. You may not like it but I don’t see the situation the same way as you do.

Again, this thread started with the situation of the lack of diplomacy for any of Russia’s security concerns and a demand to negotiate as they declared the situation on their border was becoming intolerable. I’ll remind you that shelling into the breakaways by Ukrainian forces increased dramatically in the two weeks of run up to Russia’s invasion.

There have been diplomatic negotiations while the military conflict has been ongoing as well.

Zelensky agreed some of the Russian terms from the last held Turkish negotiation, Iirc. He reversed himself the next day. Many analysts believe it was due to pressure from the US and UK governments.

It looks like that will be the last of three attempts to negotiate and the other form of negotiations, war, will play out to its conclusion.

Reread some of your savory comments towards me in your previous posts. You may need to remove the plank from your own eye to do it though. You have this annoying habit of declaring other hands dirty while yours stay clean, IMO.

Putin's massive military invasion was just a tool in his diplomacy toolbox?

Perhaps ad hominem attacks are tools of diplomacy, as well?

I took your advice and went back to look at all of my comments involving you. I found two humorous pokes and one serious opinion that was not meant to be an insult. Not much of a plank… how big is your wood on the same subject?

I give as I get. Same as the rest here, including you. I’m glad your satisfied with your comments.

Did you go back and look?

The “Nazis” are shelling the Donbas region again. I thought Putin got rid of them?

As the guy who married Linda Beckerman (now deceased first wife - before Karen) I find this particularly hilarious.
Barry Beckerman was the producer of Red Dawn.

https://twitter.com/BrotherJulius83/status/1512177211306127360

PS: Before I even met Linda, I already knew John Milius because I was friends with and worked with surf film legend Hal Jepsen.

Yeah, I find you arguing in bad faith and become insulting when the conversation doesn’t go your way.

‘ Are all Ukrainians gearing up to defend their homeland neo-Nazis and racist reactionaries? Of course not. Even so, as Russia hawkism reaches a fever pitch in Washington and Westminster, it’s instructive to see our media erase any fact that might mar an otherwise simple, moralistic narrative—Brave Liberal Democrats Face Down Kremlin. To insist on the inconvenient facts is tantamount to “amplifying Russian propaganda,” as a GOP Hill staffer accused me of doing recently.’

The New Conservative. Feb 22.

Seems to be a reactionary phenomenon others are experiencing as well.

I’ll stick to what’s been happening and you do you.

Congrats.

I'd sure like to see an example of those things. Pretty strong accusations - I always wonder if I see my comments way differently that others read them. My sense is not that I was arguing with you, more of asking you questions about what you were saying. Can you show me where I was doing the following?

1) arguing in bad faith
2) insulting you when the conversation doesn't go my way

Thank you.

Logs:

‘ The civil war was between the Ukrainian government and Russia backed separatists.

After all the exchange in this topic, you still haven’t given a reason why Putin is justified in a massive, indiscriminately destructive military invasion into Ukraine. Or why Russia was a major player in the civil war.

I take your avoidance of answering simple questions, and emotional sensitivity accompanied by odd personal insults, to be evidence that your worldview of the situation is seriously gaslighted.’

Chunks:

As far as RUSSIA’s justification, I believe it was the UN’s article 51.

That’s not me invoking article 51. That’s Russia.

See the difference Logs?


Logs:

Weird... must be 'the fog of gaslight...'

I ask questions seeking clarification and understanding, and given no straight answers, I'm written off as stupid and uncomprehending.

Go figger.



You asked. I answered and you responded in what I’ve found to be a usual manner by you,

Chunks horrible. Logs a victim.


You asked for the justification and I told you what I believed was used by Russia. Article 51. The same article 51 that we used to do Iraq, Btw.

Hahahahaha!

Alrighty, then! I have learned my lesson...

What was the lesson then Logs?

I can’t think of an effective diplomatic strategy for the U.S./Ukraine camp to have used against Putin’s invoking of Article 51. As I understand it, Article 51 action basically is this: “I am afraid of you so I am going to attack and neutralize you with my superior force and moral right.” Was that a legitimate justification for Putin to invade Ukraine with a large military force?

Isn’t that what George Zimmerman used as a justification for killing Trayvon Martin? The ‘Stand Your Ground’ rationale for being an aggressor? Probably Trayvon should have been more diplomatic, but the same question applies - what sort of diplomacy would have worked with George?

It’s not for me to say if article 51 applies or not.
I think your comparison is not a good one. The Iraq invasion would be a better one. Article 51 is about nations not individuals vs. internal state policing.

My opinion, which seems to fascinate and anger, of the sanctions were not well thought out. Grabbing reserves of sovereigns is a radical departure, looks desperate, crooked and ultimately undermines our reserve currency status of the dollar. As I’ve also said- Neocons move fast and break things as a messianic ideology. Here’s a good article on why their theft of sovereign reserves may have been a good idea:

April 14 interview of Sergey Glazyev, Minister in Charge of Integration and Macroeconomics of the Eurasia Economic Union (EAEU)

‘In the first phase of the transition, these countries fall back on using their national currencies and clearing mechanisms, backed by bilateral currency swaps. At this point, price formation is still mostly driven by prices at various exchanges, denominated in dollars. This phase is almost over: after Russia’s reserves in dollars, euro, pound, and yen were “frozen,” it is unlikely that any sovereign country will continue accumulating reserves in these currencies. Their immediate replacement is national currencies and gold.‘

I’m effect, the theft of sovereign reserves will give pause to any country thinking of using dollars as a store for its balance of payments reserves. This conflict has more than one dimension. The same lack of thought, I’ve argued, is becoming apparent with the commodities market as it looks like it’s going to hurt the Natosphere while benefiting our ‘peer competitors’. All to satisfy a minority of Russophobes. If I must live in an Empire, it would be nice if it were lead with competency, imo.

I've been wondering why the Soviet Union collapsed and why Russia and Ukraine ended up on "opposite" sides.

This is an interesting explanation.

There were nukes in both Ukraine and Russia, but Ukraine agreed to give its missiles up in exchange for a guarantee that Russia would not invade and annex it. Ukraine has also not joined NATO, apparently on the shared NATO/Ukraine desire to not provoke Russia.

Now Putin's stated reason for invasion/annexation is fear that Ukraine would join NATO and the U.S. would base missiles there. (This also brings up the question of why Russia and NATO are adversaries in the first place).

Seems to have been some kind of breakdown in diplomatic negotiations...

According to the NPR article, the thing of landing on opposite sides after the USSR break up appears to have been rooted in disparate fundamental ideological objectives - democracy vs greed and power. Ironically, greed did not dominate in the countries that pursued democracies (at least not in the beginning).

Greed and power still seem to dominate dramatically in Russia.

It's pretty obvious to me that Russia feared for its life and had every right(perhaps a duty) to annex Ukraine.

But by annexing Ukraine, Russia has moved its border closer to the very NATO firepower it's hoping to distance itself from. And now that Sweden and Finland are in line to join NATO due to Russia's aggression they will find themselves under even more international pressure.

Not From China or India though...those will remain fast friends and boosum buddies throughout the conflict. Once the annexation is complete and Russai's economy returns to normal, Russians will be struggling to find enough consumer goods to spend their newfound wealth on. They need not fear. Chinese workers will supply them with all the goods they need and call centers in India will provide consumer services in broken Russiaan.

All's well that ends well is what I always say...

Hard to have this conversation if certain realities are rejected if it doesn’t affirm a narrative. I have no dog in this fight as I said before.

The Bucharest summit, where NATO pledged to bring Ukraine into its organization, with the follow on Madan coup seems to be interpreted as a threat from the Russians.

The rejection of NATO and the US to enter into any security agreements between Russia and the EU doesn’t help.

Our supporting far right ultra nationalist in Ukraine to assist with peeling them away from Russia’s sphere of influence sure couldn’t have helped.

The expansion of NATO up to its borders and then installing a missile ‘defense’ shield can’t help.

US unilaterally pulling out of arms treaties just prior has gotta be nerve wracking for them.

Etc etc. all previously posted with citations, btw.

Simply put, Russia views this as an existential threat (I can imagine how we would react to similar shenanigans on our borders from an unfriendly foreign government ) whereas we are using a moral imperative argument. A not very convincing one for me, when you consider that line having been used in the past by our country for our own crimes of aggression.

We all deeply sympathize with Russia and hope they will find time to bomb the sh*t out of us too because we certainly deserve it.

Maybe we should bomb ourselves?

Quite a few former USSR member countries joined NATO after its dissolution in 1991. Why wasn't Russia one of them? Ukraine still isn't a NATO member, either.

Why are Russian missiles aimed at other countries, and why are missiles in other countries aimed at Russia?

Why are there so many enemies among humans?

Mostly because Russia is a dick.

Yes Chunks, the US is also a dick and should eat s*** and die. Twice.

I remember there would be a peace divide to NATO could be disbanded after the Soviet breakup.

What a sucker I was

You mean you've been breathlessly waiting for NATO to be disbanded since 1991?

And now you feel cheated?

Does anyone care about how Ukraine feels about this invasion?
If Ukraine IS a sovereign nation (which most seem to agree it is) does it not have the right to align itself with whoever and whatever it wants?
In this case, it's obvious that they felt more aligned to democratic ones.

Ukraine might have been playing both ends against the middle.

But still, no matter how many excuses for bombing the sh*t out of Ukraine you come up with, I'm not buying any of them.

Wait, what? I'm coming up with excuses for bombing Ukraine?

(I think that ‘you’ was an ‘anybody’ you, not a you you…you know what I mean?)

What bombing?

A figure of speech. I understand that Russia has exhibited the utmost restraint against the Ukrainian threat.

Now your getting it!

Row row row your boat gently down the stream….

This unprovoked polish aggression with China will come to an end. Perhaps the resumption of gummy bear trade talks will happen benefitting both Brazil and the Hmong boat people.

Peace in our time?

Who wants to talk about the Biden’s Ukranian dealings?

Jeffery, I'm sorry if I offended you again. Just as Logtroll suspected it wasn't a personal attack, merely a generic "you" aimed at the general discussion, not you personally.

I will try to choose my words more carefully in the future.

Biden's Ukranian dealings? Joe or Junior?

I'm surprised at your shock that world leaders and their families are corrupt. I just take it for granted.

Trump and fam had a few forays into Eastern Europe too. And if they'd been appointed for a second term your dream of ending NATO may have come true!

Kevin McCarthy voted not to impeach Trump for extorting Zelensky in 2019, which delayed over $391 million in critical military aid.
Now he blames Biden, who was a private citizen at the time, for not providing weapons to Ukraine.

Trump was a private businessman corrupt to the hilt.
Biden’s a public servant corrupted to the hilt by private business men.

Guess which one had people running to their feinting couches….

That’s where I call BS on all the insincere aghastitude and moralizing. It’s all a gaslighting performance.

One had one party running and fainting one has the other...

Whether you let yourself be gaslighted is up to you.

The only people in Ukraine acting like Nazis are the Russian soldiers.

It is absolutely amazing to watch you step gingerly around Trump's connection to Putin.

Yes Jeff, keep selling. Always be closing.
It was absolutely amazing watching you and yours perpetuate your fairytales of Trump Russian collusion that Dems couldn’t prove after 4 years of trying when a perfectly good case sitting in the barn could have been made with emoluments. I’ve always wondered at that.

It looks like we now know why.

You know, we didn't get a lot of input as far which egregious example of Trump's corruption got targeted and investigated.

You should have written your congressman and pointed out the emoluments issue...probably no one else thought of that.

I didn't mention "collusion", if for no other reason than the term itself, "collusion", is not a legal term.
Anyway, I made no mention of collusion.

Bull.

There was a years long thread here at the rant focused on nothing but conspiracies of Trump Russian collusion. None of it particularly true but, boy, was there ever a lot of ‘intelligence’ shared and discussed.

A years long thread that dried up as soon as the blue team got their corrupt politician on the throne.

There was a brief argument about the oddity of team blue not going for valid emoluments violations. The fact that Walter Shaub had resigned in disgust as no one in congress was taking it serious was brought up by me. Not much of a consideration as there was exciting intrigues of the diabolical Ivan’s to cluck on about.

I remember all the boomers at my congressman’s town hall meetings I attended. It was brought up hysterically by them at most of them. I recall all the weird intimate images of Trump and Putin too. A heady mix of homophobia and Russophobia. A street level display of media propaganda working.

Jeff was a big enthusiast of the whole Russia-Trump collusion fairy tales at the time, IIRC. His semantics in his previous post above don’t hold much water to his past Russian Trump collusion posting

Meanwhile..

“Chicago Board of Trade (CBOT) corn futures topped $8 a bushel and reached their highest price in nearly a decade on Monday on concerns over unfavourable United States weather and the Ukraine war disrupting grain exports.“

Corn futures hit decade-high above $8 per bushel on global supply

And just like Russiagating, it’s those that can afford it that will indulge the latest moralizing justifications for this ongoing conflict.

A lot of us wanted to see Trump fall and we don't have much to go on besides the daily news. Perhaps LaFigaro had the truth of it, or some other Ueropean newsroom knew that Trump was innocent and would never collude with Russia because he...

Was too rich, too honest, too patriotic to ever do anything like that!

They probably also reported the truth about Junior Biden's laptop.

And they have been wisely against NATO for over a century. I even have reports that if LePen wins then France will give itself up to annexation by Russia!

But alas...corn has reached a decade-high price and the end of the world is nigh!

Repent! Throw down your red and blue hats! And accept the gospel of Chunkstyle if you hope to be saved from the ravages of the American political system and be raptured into...

What is it exactly, you want us do do Chunks...? We just watch the goings-on and react and react the same as you do.

But it appears your reactions are the only right reactions and ours are twaddle not worth mentioning.

Forgive me, Father Greger, for I have grinned…

I never mentioned collusion, because collusion isn't something that can be addressed by the law.
In fact I think several of us, including folks much smarter than me, arrived at the realization that you can't charge a president with collusion because collusion is not technically a crime.

If you're referring to Mueller's investigation, that's a horse of a different color, but you seem to be obsessed with something called Russiagate.
Trump was playing the Putin playbook to the hilt. Putin wanted NATO fractured, he almost got what he wanted, and President Trump was eager to give it to him.
Imagine where "s*** would be right now" along the banks of the Dniper River if NATO had been gutted.

If you're okay with all of that plus much more happening in Europe, just say so.
If you're okay with Putin calling the shots in Washington, just say so.
You won't have a lot of friends among the independents, or the liberals, or even sane conservatives.
But as I am guessing, you don't want any of those kinds of friends.

And Murrika is crawling with them, we're up to the gills with those kinds.

I can't do a damn thing to force Congress to finish up and figure out if they can charge Trump with a crime.
If they don't, count on him finishing the job he started, you know, the one where you wind up with some rather odd friends?
If they do, and they put Trump and co in prison, your life will go on, I promise you.
If they do, and Trump wins, you will find out very quickly who your friends really are in this world.

But in any case, I don't hold office, I'm not a billionaire so I don't own any politicians, and I don't wear a badge.
All I can do is vote.

Seems you're feeling better about the folks who want to put a muzzle on voting, because you somehow proved Russiagate didn't exist?
Is that what you're backing now?
I'm having a tough time deciphering, and an even tougher time understanding why I am the bad guy, but I guess I can't make everyone happy.

Oh wait...was Russiagate that thing where people accused Trump and Putin of conspiring to put some large heavy thumbs on the voting machines?
There isn't much bang for the buck in that. What you really have to do is to [censored] up the average person's understanding of what a free and fair election really
is and build a monster fake narrative about Democrats committing crimes with emails and then pay a bunch of foreign agents to help you with your stories
so that a compliant media will be compelled to give it as much airtime as possible...

But all of that is okay?

"De facto we're starting to wage war against NATO countries. We'll be grinding up NATO's war machine as well as citizens of NATO countries," Solovyov said.
"Not only will Ukraine have to be denazified; the war against Europe and the world is developing a more specific outline, which means we'll have to act differently, and to act much more harshly," Solovyov concluded in the clip shared on Twitter by former Swedish Prime Minister Carl Bildt, now co-chair of the European Council on Foreign Relations.


Russian State TV Talks of 'War Against Europe and the World' After Ukraine

I was just updating the list of probable justifications for Russia's systematic and brutal destruction of Ukraine - here's what I've got (in no particular order):

1) de-Nazification
2) push-back against constant bullying by NATO (particularly the U.S.)
3) empire re-building
4) protecting recently annexed territory (Crimea) from Ukraine (from whom it was annexed - need a list of justifications for that, too)
5) U.N. Article 51 (also used by the U.S. to justify invading Afghanistan and Iraq)
6) it would be a cake walk
7) need a "land bridge" to Crimea
8) Biden is a wuss
9) corn
10) enhance the price of Russian petroleum
11) Putin just wanted to
12) world domination
13) Ukrainians are sub-human
14) NATO rejected Putin's reasonable demands
?)

Did I miss anything?

Looks like a solid case for wanton destruction of a nation and its people is warranted... time to give in and negotiate for peace?

That's a really good list alright.
Not much else I can say or do except shrug.
How DOES this finally end?

I don't know if you remember Vaughan Meador's comedy LP "The First Family", but it came out during the JFK "Camelot" admin.
One clip involves a diplomatic lunch ,and Kruschev says;
"Oh...you don't have to order special for me.
I'll have a bite of everybody else's."

Some things never change.

I don't see a single swastika or any other national socialist or neo-nazi symbols anywhere, do you?
And we don't run around arresting people for carrying that stuff or even a blank piece of paper.
So if they had em they woulda brung em.

https://twitter.com/InnaSovsun/status/1518204531435257858

Putin's claim of "de-nazification" is and always was a bald faced lie, and almost a quarter of USA doesn't realize it, nor would they listen if told.
And even if there is a handful of people in the battalion they're dwarfed by the ocean of them in our own law enforcement and our own military.

Putin's claim, and all the yammering by his supporters, is a lie.

Oh by the way...


UkraineWorld
@ukraine_world
Russians force Ukrainian farmers to start sowing, demanding that they hand over all the harvest.

In the Kherson Oblast, an elevator was robbed and all grain was taken to the occupied Crimea

Basically, that's how Holodomor started in the 1930s

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1517845722820919296

UKRAINE: FASCISTS GET 2.5% of the vote
FRANCE: Fascists get 42% of the vote.

Yeah, I think it is safe to say that "the Nazi problem" in Ukraine
is 4000% astroturfed BULLSH*T.

I think we have way more Nazis here in the US, compared to Ukraine!

I'm quite sure the number of nazis in Anaheim, California dwarfs Ukraine.
For some reason the nazis have always been fond of that town..
I used to wonder if it was because of Disney's presence but they're not welcome there.
So I guess it's in spite of.