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After reading some of the insanity on the "Can't they be friends" thread, I'm about to switch sides on this subject. If people who belong to the "oppressed" groups can determine in advance which segments of the population can be friends with which other segments of the population, then it seems perfectly rational to me for state legislatures to decide which segments of the population should be allowed to be married to one another. Insanity? Sure. Stupid and silly? Sure. But if the oppressed want to be judgmental, then there is no basis for attacking the "unoppressed" for being similarly judgmental.
"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown
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Administrator Bionic Scribe
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After reading some of the insanity on the "Can't they be friends" thread, I'm about to switch sides on this subject. If people who belong to the "oppressed" groups can determine in advance which segments of the population can be friends with which other segments of the population, then it seems perfectly rational to me for state legislatures to decide which segments of the population should be allowed to be married to one another. Insanity? Sure. Stupid and silly? Sure. But if the oppressed want to be judgmental, then there is no basis for attacking the "unoppressed" for being similarly judgmental. So gays have to be unbiased, non-judgmental in order to have rights? Why? And where did you get your conclusions? Not from anything said on that thread. All that is said there is that people have preferences. Don't you?
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul
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Moderator Carpal Tunnel
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Moderator Carpal Tunnel
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Gay marriage leaps ahead in Maine, New Hampshire AUGUSTA, Maine (AP) — In a banner day for advocates of gay marriage, Maine legalized the practice Wednesday, and the New Hampshire Legislature voted to do the same.
If New Hampshire Gov. John Lynch signs the bill or lets it become law without his signature, his state would become the sixth overall to allow gay marriage and the fifth in New England. Rhode Island would be the region's only holdout.
Maine Gov. John Baldacci, a Democrat who hadn't indicated how he would handle his state's bill, signed it shortly after the legislation passed the Senate on a vote of 21-13 — a margin not large enough to override a veto.
"In the past, I opposed gay marriage while supporting the idea of civil unions," Baldacci said in a statement read in his office. "I have come to believe that this is a question of fairness and of equal protection under the law, and that a civil union is not equal to civil marriage."
Lynch, also a Democrat, remained uncommitted but has said he believes the word "marriage" should be reserved for unions of a man and a woman.
"I'm going to talk to legislators and I'm going to talk to the people of New Hampshire and ultimately make the best decision I can for the people of New Hampshire," the governor said Wednesday evening.
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.
Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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Moderator Carpal Tunnel
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I think, Phil, that the reaction was to the judgmental tone that some posters approached the subject with, as well as the underlying "survey" that started that thread, not with your particular comment. I really don't think that Logan is the problem, but it is ironic when victims of intolerance display their own intolerance in writing. I just can't tolerate that, can you? 
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.
Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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Administrator Bionic Scribe
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Administrator Bionic Scribe
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I think, Phil, that the reaction was to the judgmental tone that some posters approached the subject with, as well as the underlying "survey" that started that thread, not with your particular comment. I really don't think that Logan is the problem, but it is ironic when victims of intolerance display their own intolerance in writing. I just can't tolerate that, can you? I have no intention to argue with Logan or anyone else, but it seems to me intolerable to link intolerance and rights, that is all I was saying.
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul
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Moderator Carpal Tunnel
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Moderator Carpal Tunnel
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Oh, I agree entirely. I just took Logan's statement to be sarcastic.
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.
Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Well, not entirely. The other thread suggests in its title and original post that members of certain biological groups can be described as having behavioral traits endemic to being in that group. That seemingly absurd notion has been challenged, but the challenge is refuted by some of the more outspoken champions of this thread.
It's a goose and gander thing. If it is okay for advocates of gay rights to assign behavioral traits on the basis of biological group membership, then it is okay for other people to make similar assignments.
So all I need do to morally oppose gay marriage is believe those who suggest that gay people, regardless of which other gay people comprise their potential circle of friends, lack the requisite behavioral traits to be a married couple. And I can suggest, again morally, that the ability to conceive a child with my marital partner, is a behavioral trait necessary to support marriage rights.
The moral basis for the insistence on rights without regard to behavioral traits, which I have persistently and consistently supported, is called into question by the stereotypical discussion going on elsewhere.
"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown
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Administrator Bionic Scribe
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Administrator Bionic Scribe
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Are you suggesting, logan, that biology has nothing to do with our associational preferences? That is overwhelmingly contradicted by science, so I must have misinterpreted????
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul
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member
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Oh my gosh I've landed in Parallel World. 
"I believe very deeply that compassion is the route not only for the evolution of the full human being, but for the very survival of the human race." —The Dalai Lama
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Are you suggesting, logan, that biology has nothing to do with our associational preferences? That is overwhelmingly contradicted by science, so I must have misinterpreted???? After emphasizing the word "nothing", the answer clearly is, "no". My brain is part of my biology so my biology clearly has something to do with the preferences that result from the synaptic processing that takes place there. The biology that makes me a member of one gender group of the species or drives my sexual interests, however, does not predetermine who my friends will be. What kind of person they are, how the behave toward me and those I love, etc., leads to those choices. The argument to the contrary is consistent, biologically, morally, and legally, with the argument that my sexual preferences should affect my marital choices.
"The white men were as thick and numerous and aimless as grasshoppers, moving always in a hurry but never seeming to get to whatever place it was they were going to." Dee Brown
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