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Dec 6th, 2017
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 17,985 Likes: 178
Moderator Carpal Tunnel
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Moderator Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 17,985 Likes: 178 |
Zeke, my friend, what gave you the notion that my last post was in response to yours? Did you not notice that it was a separate post from the response? There are other participants in this thread.
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.
Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 17,985 Likes: 178
Moderator Carpal Tunnel
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Moderator Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 17,985 Likes: 178 |
Broken Link: The Intercept
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.
Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,388
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,388 |
Zeke, my friend, what gave you the notion that my last post was in response to yours? Did you not notice that it was a separate post from the response? There are other participants in this thread. Sorry about that ! My bad. I thought because it was following my post that it was. Although I should have known it didn't make sense.
"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
Lenny Bruce
"The cleverest of all, in my opinion, is the man who calls himself a fool at least once a month."
Dostoevsky
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Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 362
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 362 |
BTW I did not say that you were wrong to defend capitalism - just stand up for whatever principles you believe in. That way we can speak to each other as intelligent human beings which I believe we both are.
To call me extreme is funny, actually. I always thought that democracy meant the free expression of ideas and the OBLIGATION to dissent when one group is oppressed. I must be mistaken. Americans are always blathering about free speech and how much they support freedom of expression, but if you get too far beyond a narrow range of acceptable opinions -- watch out! the knives come out! My theory is: the more a group of people espouse a principle, and the stronger they claim to adhere to it, so much the more is the real situation the exact opposite. .
Once, weapons were manufactured to fight wars; today, wars are manufactured to sell weapons
It is far easier to deceive folks than to convince them they are deceived
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 17,985 Likes: 178
Moderator Carpal Tunnel
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Moderator Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 17,985 Likes: 178 |
I think, my friend, that we've lost sight of the central point of this thread. It's about the campaign. I think most observers recognize that Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump have tapped into disparate veins of populism within the electorate. I don't think either expected their campaigns to go as long or be as successful as they have been. But, elections are about where we are "in the moment." In the current moment, outsiders do well. But neither Bernie Sanders nor Donald Trump represent the majority of the electorate (or even their own parties).
I believe that Hillary Clinton will represent more of the electorate come November. Polling suggests that will be true. Progressives, liberals, moderates, Democrats and independents of every stripe should take note and get out to vote. If they don't, we could be saddled with a Trump presidency. When Ronald Reagan won I thought that would be as bad as it could get, then we got George Bush junior. And then he was reelected! Now thRepublicanse are putting up someone who could be the biggest liar in presidential history.
I'm not sure most people realize just how pathological the Donald really is. It's not as if he hides it. He will lie about anything and not bat an eye. I'm not sure he utters a sentence without a lie in it. But Republicans, no matter how little he represents their views, will vote for him. Republicans get in line.
When Sanders eventually concedes, I am confident he will throw his weight behind Clinton. He will lose some supporters when he does, but he wants to defeat the Republicans as much as any Democrat.
A well reasoned argument is like a diamond: impervious to corruption and crystal clear - and infinitely rarer.
Here, as elsewhere, people are outraged at what feels like a rigged game -- an economy that won't respond, a democracy that won't listen, and a financial sector that holds all the cards. - Robert Reich
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 21,134
Administrator Bionic Scribe
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Administrator Bionic Scribe
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 21,134 |
You heard it here first:
The GOP has decided to appear to back Trump all the while setting him up for a classic failure just by letting him talk. That way they can legitimately claim to simply rescue the party with a different candidate.
Well, maybe not first
Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,388
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,388 |
In an effort to dispel the semantic embroglio we seem to have conjured up I suggest we call Hillary a liberal (in the Wilson/Jane Adams vein) and Bernie can be called a Lefty in the Gene Debs style, although Debs was more to the left than Bernie.
The term progressive has lost any meaning at this point, anyway.
Phil, I think there is something to that. I also think he might have a meltdown before the convention. He doesn't seem to be able to play hardball.
"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
Lenny Bruce
"The cleverest of all, in my opinion, is the man who calls himself a fool at least once a month."
Dostoevsky
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,388
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,388 |
BTW I did not say that you were wrong to defend capitalism - just stand up for whatever principles you believe in. That way we can speak to each other as intelligent human beings which I believe we both are.
To call me extreme is funny, actually. I always thought that democracy meant the free expression of ideas and the OBLIGATION to dissent when one group is oppressed. I must be mistaken. Americans are always blathering about free speech and how much they support freedom of expression, but if you get too far beyond a narrow range of acceptable opinions -- watch out! the knives come out! My theory is: the more a group of people espouse a principle, and the stronger they claim to adhere to it, so much the more is the real situation the exact opposite. . It's funny isn't it. But in fact, Debs in the U.S. And John McLean in Scotland were both jailed for "sedition" because they spoke out (note the word, speak) against conscription in WWI. They both died shortly after being released from prison - as a result of their encarceration. So I guess, the whole freedom of speech thing is sort of a suggestion.
"The liberals can understand everything but people who don't understand them."
Lenny Bruce
"The cleverest of all, in my opinion, is the man who calls himself a fool at least once a month."
Dostoevsky
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 12,129 Likes: 257
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 12,129 Likes: 257 |
Interesting thing about what Noam Chomsky had to say about the general popularity of single-payer healthcare: The public might favor it, but they keep on reelecting Republicans to Congress, and those Republicans vote against it. Even when they elect Democrats, often those are Blue Dogs who likewise vote against it.
When ACA passed Congress, it barely squeaked by because single-payer was removed. This was not Obama's preference but had to be done to get any bill at all. From a democratic point of view, we should have it right now because most people support it. But we do not have a popular democracy in which we get to vote on every issue.
The reality is that in many districts people will keep on voting against their own best interests because of the "dog whistle" issues some candidate brings up. Reality sucks some times.
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 11,991 Likes: 128
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 11,991 Likes: 128 |
My theory is: the more a group of people espouse a principle, and the stronger they claim to adhere to it, so much the more is the real situation the exact opposite. That right there is the Rule of the Opposite Thang! I most gen'ly sees it when Conservatives is talkin', so then it's ConROT.
You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the old model obsolete.
R. Buckminster Fuller
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