Capitol Hill Blue Forums Political Issues Politics In General Is it too soon to be talking 2020?

Yeah, he is honest. Have I said otherwise? The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

I see him as honest but hopelessly naive and misguided, and I think he did enormous harm to America, by damaging the only viable candidate that could have stopped Trump. I won't ever forgive him for it.

Now I see why you're so pissed at Sanders.
I honestly think Hillz is the reason we got Trump.
She may be an excellent policy wonk but as candidates go, she was horrible, and not just in 2016, she was horrible the first time she tried in 2008.

She's just a terrible candidate, unlikable...even though I even think she could have done a decent job. But people have to like candidates to vote for them, and a lot of people simply refused to vote, or vote for her.

A pocket of Bros refused, too...but a majority of Bernie people did vote for her under protest...just not enough of them.

I don't blame Sanders for us getting Trump.
I blame Democrats for not voting, or for not voting because they thought we had it in the bag, or not voting because they didn't like Hillz (I even voted for her despite not liking her much) or for voting for Trump out of spite.

Is "spleen" referring to the post or to the poster?
Boy howdy folks, be nice to each other.

Come on guys, what is this?
Can we all just...try to get along?

Great, the personal attacks continue. Do notice that I've NEVER issued one.

And by the way, I'm not a Democrat. I'm an Independent, and I actually voted for Sanders in my state's primaries, believe it or not, although I profoundly dislike him (at the time I thought he was best positioned to beat Trump so I pinched my nose and voted for him; later I saw that my evaluation at the time was a mistake).


Yeah, right, it's not an attack on me when you say that I'm irrational and emotional... right.

Tell that to all the women who show a little pizzazz and assertiveness and are called emotional and irrational... it's one of the oldest forms of personal attacks. Who do you think you are fooling???

And me, lumped with Republicans??? You clearly don't know me.

The numbers back you up. Hillary won the Democratic base vote 89-8 over Trump, but Sanders supporters did back Hillary, but by a 75-12 margin over Trump with 13% voting third party. Against both Trump and Clinton. Who knows how many stayed home, no exit poll will ever show you that.

Also in Nov 2016 the Democrats had a 6 point edge in party affiliation, but only a 3 point advantage in those who went to the polls and voted. Besides being lazy during the campaign season, letting Trump both out work her and out campaign her, she did have a very inept campaign strategy and was very unattractive to the independent, non-affiliated voter. 70% of all independents had a negative view of Hillary vs. 57% negative for Trump. Hence you had 12% of independents, swing voters vote against both major party candidates while the rest went for Trump.

As an aside, I believe if Sanders instead of Hillary was the nominee back in 2016, he would have won. No way to prove that, but just a gut feeling. Sanders was energetic, Hillary was Ho hum, Sanders also had much more charisma than Hillary who I viewed as a wet mop on the campaign trail, her and her fake smile is about all I remember of her campaign.

She might have indeed made a good president, but first you must win the general election. I always thought McCain would have been an excellent president, Bob Dole also. But like Hillary, both lacked that key ingredient, charisma and charm. Dole up against Mr. charisma Bill Clinton and McCain up against Mr. Charisma Jr. Both lost the independent vote and the election.

Usually, whoever wins independents, the swing voters wins the election. Off the top of my head, going back to Eisenhower, I can remember only one election where a candidate lost the independent vote and still won the election. 1976, Carter over Ford. That was a very close election. Ford won the independent vote, but democrats outnumbered Republicans back then by 15 points. 43-28 among those who actually voted. Independents made up but 23% of the electorate back then. Not the 40% they make up today.

I don't dispute that Hillary was the main reason for Trump. I voted for Obama against her in the 2008 primaries, and never particularly liked her.

But I've explained this over and over elsewhere: given the razor-thin margin of Trump's victory, ANY one of the multiple factors that miraculously aligned for him in 2016 would have resulted in his loss and Hillary's victory.

Hillary's incompetence as a campaigner... her multiple unforced errors (I could go on and on about those and list them; not worth doing it now), Comey's letter, Hillary's idiotic campaign manager, Vladimir Putin, sexism, xenophobia, white supremacists, blue collar worker disillusionment, the DNC, and so on and so forth.

But given that any ONE factor would have defeated Trump, yes, Bernie's campaign and Bernie or Bust idiots ALSO played an essential role, sine qua non.

My analogy is the one with people indicted for conspiracy to commit murder, all of them doing it for the same common goal.

One buys the gun. The second one buys the ammunition. The third one contacts and hires the hit man. The fourth one pays the hit man. The fifth one takes the gun and the ammunition to the hit man. The sixth one woos the victim into a back alley. Then the seventh one, the hit man, pulls the trigger and kills the victim.

All seven are guilty. Sure, the hit man who pulled the trigger is guiltier (that's Hillary Clinton in this analogy, the one must responsible for her own loss).

BUT EVERY ONE OF THE OTHER SIX ARE STILL CHARGED WITH CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT MURDER AND THEY DON'T GET A PASS BECAUSE THE HIT MAN WAS MORE GUILTY.

Every single one of them, the murder wouldn't have happened without their part of the action.

So, Bernie or Bust types were just as responsible for Trump's win as any of the other multiple factors except for Hillary's incompetence.

Hillary is the guiltiest one. All the others are also guilty. So, yes, Bernie or Bust types did put Trump in office, and I can't forgive them for it (just lie I can't forgive Comey, Vladimir Putin, Hillary herself, etc).

ALL of them are guilty of the president we have today.

Well, you know, Greger did clarify it. It's referring to the poster.

Greger: "I agree, you're emotional and irrational."

What he said to me:

YOU. ARE. EMOTIONAL. AND. IRRATIONAL.

If this isn't a personal attack, I don't know what else is.

I must say, I'm disappointed. I thought this place was different.

No, the numbers support MY position. I couldn't care less about what Hillary fans did in 2008. I wasn't one of them. I voted for Obama. What they did was of no consequence, since Obama won anyway.

But from your own numbers (and I assume they came from the famous Newsweek article, as they match what is there), 12% + 13% = 25%, WAY more, way way way way more than the razor-thin margin by which Trump won the three essential states that gave him his Electoral College victory.

Yep, the Bernie or Bust folks elected Donald Trump. It's as simple as that.

And Comey. And Putin. And Hillary herself, etc.

But without those 25% of defecting Bernie or Bust misguided voters (who shot themselves in the foot by allowing lifetime 2 SCOTUS justices and 250 federal judges be nominated by Trump, which will doom all progressive ideals for a generation), Trump wouldn't be president today.

It is different, but it's not perfect.

"Nothing's clean Howard, but we do our best."