Capitol Hill Blue Forums Political Issues Constitutional Issues The 14th Amendment and Donald Trump

I know we are lost as a Democracy when politics gets in the way of the Constitution.

I'll be working on the obit.

I created a pic for the occasion but can't figure out how to post the picture. I don't have a web link, it is on my PC.

Some of you Zappa fans might remember "Is that a real poncho or is that a Sears poncho?" from Cozmik Debris.
Well, after several years of MAGA projection on Sleepy Joe's mental fitness, we now realize that was the Sears poncho.
This is the REAL poncho in action.

There are SO MANY reasons that Donald Trump is unqualified for the presidency. First, he was never qualified, and his four years in the White House demonstrated that in spades. Second, he is not cognitively well. He is unraveling before our eyes. While he has always been only marginally competent, he is fading faster than a week old mushroom left on the counter. He is certainly less competent, at this juncture, than Joe Biden. Finally, he is a disgraceful traitor to the country and the Constitution, as the 91 felony counts in four indictments demonstrate. More specifically, his violation of his oath and engaging in insurrection bar him, constitutionally, from taking office. We should be very cognizant of who he picks as his running mate.

The Trump problem needs to be done by the supremes. I know, the supremes also problems of their own. Right now I think there are about 3 specifics that they are considering. I suspect that there are, probably, 10 or 20 more that will also end up in the hands of the supremes as well. The problem is that there is no reason to think that they won't just do nothing.

I don't think the supremes are going to do the job because, basically, there isn't enough time to deal with the stuff that needs to be dealt with given how long virtually anything in the courts takes, especially the tough stuff.

I have no idea what else to say about this. The United States has a mess and the mess is not being dealt with. Trump figured it out. He is an expert in dealing with laws and courts. Its really pretty simple - extend, extend, extend until it makes no difference due to this and that. I am not even convinced that anybody actually gives a damn.

Its gonna get seriously interesting before it just all comes apart.

The Supremes will shortly hear the case. Not being an attorney nor having any additional legal background, it would be hard to make an intelligent comment on the case itself. From my perspective, after reading the Amendment and applying public records for consideration of an argument, I believe he should be disqualified, as well as many other elected officials currently serving in Congress, and all of those who were previous office holders and took the Oath to support the Constitution and participated in Trump Insurrection.

Sooo ... I'm thinking, How will the Supremes rule? Having read numerous articles from legal scholars, I can see them punting ... they're weak and see the political ramifications. I can see them upholding Colorado, and therefore by transitive action, disqualify Trump from all ballots. I can also see them doing the usual Originalist gymnastics of lying they are Originalists and then doing the political thing, saying the 14th doesn't apply to Trump or any other Insurrectionists.

Another possibility is they will rule Trump can run but cannot take office. Yikes!!! First, if he wins, how do the Supremes keep him from taking the Oath? Who would enforce the court order???? Second, what is the process? For instance, following the 14th, and suppose Republicans win both Houses of Congress, it would be a foregone conclusion they would allow Trump to become an officeholder. And what if Republicans do not control both Houses? Is the House the sole arbiter???? At what point does Democracy actual die??? or is it already dead we have not heard the news? or are we just too frakking dense to admit the odor we smell is the rotting corpse of Democracy.

I want to hear what is on the minds of thinking people.

From having this discussion on another site, I’d like to point of that the 14th amendment has different sections, which section 5 states – “The congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article. Which section 3 is a provision of this article or the 14th amendment. Congress did pass legislation stating the south was in a state of insurrection signed into law by President Lincoln. After ratification congress did pass numerous laws dealing with enforcement of the entire 14th amendment. Then in 1872 congress passed the amnesty act rescinding most if not all laws dealing with section 3. No such appropriate legislation was passed dealing with 1-6 nor has the president, the DOJ, Homeland security or any other federal agency declared or stated 1-6 was an insurrection nor do any of the 91 federal indictments charge Trump with insurrection. Not having done so, this could be your punt by the SCOTUS.

I don’t speak lawyerese, the SCOTUS will read and interpret the constitution in lawyerese, not in plain English. But if the federal government to include congress, the president, all other federal government agencies never declared nor stated 1-6 was an insurrection per section 5 with the appropriate legislation, then the SCOTUS may or might interpret since this wasn’t done, 1-6 wasn’t an insurrection officially and legally. Thus, making section 3 applying to Trump, null, void and moot.

If you believe that is a valid interpretation of the Amendment, then I will conclude based on your logic, all laws which did not specifically mention any one singularly, that law does not apply.

Open the prisons ... everyone is free to go since no law mentioned you specifically.

You're correct that many laws were passed regarding the 14th and I believe if you read the history of them, they specifically targeted former members of the Confederacy specifically, including, I believe, Jeff Davis. However, the 14th was not repealed. The amendment remains in effect and addresses, as the writers maintained, insurrection in general, although it was instigated in particular by the people who had taken an oath to uphold and support the Constitution and then fought against it in an insurrection. Thus we should conclude it applies to ALL insurrections.

Congressional interdiction by passing laws which allowed former insurrectionists to hold elected office is an example of how Trump could be allowed to hold office. The House would certainly pass a bill which exonerates Trump of any act of insurrection. The question would be, is that enough? As far as "enforcement", if a state passed a law which states any insurrectionist hold an elected office, then Congress could and should pass laws which would supersede the state law. This is how it was done regarding civil rights issues and thus, it would be how it would be done regarding Trump's Insurrection. Since no state has passed laws allowing insurrections to hold office, there is no need for Congress to address the issue and "enforce" the amendment.

I think the "punt" is to rule it is a state issue, until it becomes a federal (Constitutional) issue. Thus, for example, if the states allow him to run for the House, the House could seat him despite the fact he is an insurrectionist. The Senate would not allow him to be seated. And lastly if he wins the general, who would enforce the 14th and not allow him to take the oath? At that point the Supremes would have to rule, since he has to take the oath from the Chief Justice. Or Justice Roberts could ignore the Constitution and simply administer the oath.

Now if you believe we are still a Democracy, then I think you are sadly mistaken. You may as well install Trump as king and all in his line as kings in waiting. I suspect it is worse than I imagine. Think Texas ... JD Vance ...

Trump, I think, is slowly, but surely, getting himself deeper and deeper in trouble. Now that he did not have the right to do whatever he wanted when he was president and the additional little thing about him being a CITIZEN and NOT A PRESIDENT things are changing a bit.

I have come to the conclusion that the supremes are not going to do anything about Trump until he is tried and convicted of conspiracy to take over. Once that happens he will then be convicted and, I suspect, will not be allowed to run for president if he gets convicted of his conspiracy because he has been legally convicted to doing the crime,.

I think this is what the Supremes are waiting for. Once he has been convicted the Supremes will have all they need to remove Mr. Trump from running for office in the United States of America as per the constitution of the United States of America.

One last. I am basing all this on his conviction. If he beats it and they don't convict him he gets to run. Seems pretty simple.........

Be still my heart!

Today's extremely well-written U.S. Appellate Court ruling is the bitch-slap that Trump has so richly deserved for such a VERY LONG time. Kudos to Justices Henderson, Pan, and Childs.

Today's ruling will take care of the 14th amendment question as well: Trump IS an insurrectionist.