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Ardy #89915 12/07/08 09:47 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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All the "other battles" I was writing about were in the context of equal rights for gay and lesbian people, as per the poll numbers. The single poll question that did not show majority support for their equal rights was on the use of the term "marriage". All of those other rights are important, with real consequences in all our lives.

But I am not suggesting we give up anything. Fight all the battles, but don't let the opponents direct all of our effort to the one battle we can't win...yet.

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Carpal Tunnel
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Oh my. That's a heck of an astute piece of writing, Phil. Very succinct.

Quote
Comparing the infringement on civil rights that gays are experiencing to that suffered by black Americans is to begin a game of “top my oppression” that you’re not going to win. The struggle for equality — beginning with freedom from human bondage (see: references to the book of Exodus at the Gospel Brunch) — has been so central to African-American identity that many blacks find homosexual claims of a commensurate level of injustice frivolous, and even offensive.

I don't think the writers intended to offer any solutions, but I think they did a fine job of identifying the underlying paradox.

Furthermore — and perhaps even more painfully for those of us who support gay marriage and all that it represents — Christian teaching on marriage is not the only reason so many blacks supported Proposition 8. Although it has come as a shocking realization to many in this community, a host of sociological studies confirm that many blacks feel a significant aversion to homosexuality itself, finding it morally and sexually repugnant.
OUCH! Suddenly we White people are faced with the awful reality that churchgoing Black people are no more progressive than churchgoing White people - and there are more of them!


Steve
Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love,
to respect and be kind to one another,
so that we may grow with peace in mind.

(Native American prayer)

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journeyman
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Originally Posted by pondering_it_all
The fight over the use of the term "marriage" is the single battle the opponents want us to fight: Because it's the only battle they can win right now. (It is one of those powerful iconic words that invoke all sorts of deep emotions in a majority of American people when they hear it. You can't change that with a logical argument.) We can win every other battle, right now! So let's do it.
Hey PIA,

You are where I used to be on this issue, I've just stepped a little further over to the dark side devil

I used to be fine with the idea of "whatever we can get would be great" any advancement is a positive. Win enough small battles and then we can win the war.

Let us not forget, we had the right to marry - that was one of those small battles, and it had already been won. Then, we were put in a position to have to win the same battle again! That ain't right. Suddenly something snapped in my head and I went reeling into All or Nothing Gay Avenger mode! crazy

As I've said, this issue does not affect me personally in any immediate way - In fact, if I was smart, I would shut up about it, it's hard enough to find a date now, it will be impossible once they're all married. But a lot of us are just not feeling the desire or the need to compromise anymore. Been there done that.

The silly people hanging onto the word, don't even have that to hold onto. Here is a little historical gay tidbit that many straight people may not know. In the nearly 30 years I have been out (wow. I really didn't need to put that in those terms), every gay person I have ever known in a committed long term relationship ALWAYS referred to themselves as 'married'.

Years before this battle, male partners referred to each other as husbands, and female partners referred to themselves as wives. So, the sadly ironic part of this whole semantic argument is that, even IF our legal couplings are called something else by the government, church, etc., all you will hear from the gay folks are marital terms. From a social/cultural standpoint, the word marriage and all its little terms have already been adopted by the gay community. In fact, these days, when a gay person tells me that they are married, I now ask: "officially"?


We are constantly invited to be who we are. Henry David Thoreau
Jeffro #89942 12/08/08 02:43 AM
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Quote
The gay marriage debate moves to the Midwest this week as the Iowa Supreme Court hears arguments in a challenge to the state's ban on same-sex marriage.

If the high court rules in favor of the half dozen gay couples who filed the lawsuit, it would make Iowa the fourth state behind Massachusetts, California and Connecticut to uphold the right of same-sex couples to legally marry. In California, however, voters have negated the courts by amending the state constitution to ban gay marriage.

The Iowa case has been moving through the legal system for more than three years, and it could take a year or more for the state Supreme Court to issue a ruling after hearing oral arguments Tuesday morning.
MSNBC


Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul
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Pooh-Bah
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Quote
I used to be fine with the idea of "whatever we can get would be great" any advancement is a positive. Win enough small battles and then we can win the war.
But the poll numbers say that there is enough support to win everything, every single right that straight married people have, right now... but that last little bit. Which as you claim, is just ignored by so many in the gay community because they already refer to themselves as "married".

Win the 99% now and the remaining 1% left will whither and dissappear as the language and culture evolve to handle talking about couples in civil unions: As such unions become more common and more discussed, people will avoid the clumsiness of "they are in a civil union" and just use the word "married".

As for "gay avenger" mode, I know what you mean. Right after the election I entertained some intense revenge fantasies. And I am 100% behind the effort to rescind the tax exempt status of "religious groups" that have violated the IRS requirements limiting lobbying.

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Actually the way forward seems simple. Remove all the financial and tax differentiation between gay couples and non-gay couples and the word "marriage" loses its meaning. I have supported your privileged status long enough.


Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul
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journeyman
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In other news:

Pat Boone is insane

I hate to send anyone to World Net Daily, but that is where this was posted. Some highlights (bolding mine):

Quote
Pretty rotten thing that happened in Mumbai, huh?

Grand old hotel, in an increasingly progressive and prosperous India: Suddenly, hundreds of innocent, unsuspecting people are hostages, some of them being systematically murdered. Bombs are exploding, people are screaming, military are descending into the chaos, TV crews are coming from everywhere to broadcast the carnage worldwide.

[snip]

Thank God, it couldn't happen here. Could it?

[snip]

Are you unaware of the raging demonstrations in our streets, in front of our churches and synagogues, even spilling into these places of worship, and many of these riots turning defamatory and violent? Have you not seen the angry distorted faces of the rioters, seen their derogatory and threatening placards and signs, heard their vows to overturn the democratically expressed views of voters, no matter what it costs, no matter what was expressed at the polls? Twice?

I refer to California's Proposition 8. You haven't heard about the well-oiled campaign to find out the names of every voter and business that contributed as much as $1,000, or even much less, in support of Prop 8? You haven't heard about the announced plans to boycott, demonstrate, intimidate and threaten each one – because they dared to vote to retain marriage as between one man and one woman? You haven't seen, on the evening news, prominent entertainers and even California Gov. Schwarzenegger, urging the demonstrators on, telling them they should "never give up" until they get their way?

Assuming you have become aware of all this, let me ask you: Have you not seen the awful similarity between what happened in Mumbai and what's happening right now in our cities?

[snip snip snip]

Slavery was abolished, blacks and women obtained the rights to vote, and these true rights were not obtained by threats and violent demonstrations and civil disruption (though these things did occur, of course), but by due process, congressional deliberations and appropriate ratification. This was democracy in action, not mob rule. As noted journalist Thomas Sowell has said, there never was "a right to win." In America, at least the America we've known till now, rights are earned and won in a deliberative, legal way – at the polls.

What troubles me so deeply, and should trouble all thinking Americans, is that there is a real, unbroken line between the jihadist savagery in Mumbai and the hedonistic, irresponsible, blindly selfish goals and tactics of our homegrown sexual jihadists. Hate is hate, no matter where it erupts. And by its very nature, if it's not held in check, it will escalate into acts vile, violent and destructive.


Stay away from the brown acid Pat...


We are constantly invited to be who we are. Henry David Thoreau
Jeffro #90050 12/09/08 03:01 AM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Good to see you are keeping a sense of humor about this, Jeffro. What a groaner!


Steve
Give us the wisdom to teach our children to love,
to respect and be kind to one another,
so that we may grow with peace in mind.

(Native American prayer)

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Pooh-Bah
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So is Mr. Boone on that contributor list?

Anybody have his home address? LOL

Was anybody so naive they thought they could tell millions of people their marriages are now invalid or they no longer have the right to marry their fiance, and they would all just accept that meekly? Personally, I'm surprised we haven't seen any churches or K of C halls put to the torch. (I'm not encouraging anybody to do that, of course.)

It's ironic that Mr. Boone would bring up India, since India has a strong tradition of discrimination in which the lower castes have been denied the rights of others, and all with the approval of the majority. The resulting carnage has killed countless numbers of people through the ages, some at the hands of the victims and some at the hands of their oppressors.


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Bionic Scribe
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But, but.... it is illegal to be gay in India so they are ok.


Life is a banquet -- and most poor suckers are starving to death -- Auntie Mame
You are born naked and everything else is drag - RuPaul
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