Capitol Hill Blue Forums We shall overcome

Gosh, I went back and read every kap17 post in this thread, and nowhere did I see him say that his personal beliefs should trump anyone's rights. He said his personal beliefs are his personal beliefs; he said he supported civil rights for all and leave marriage to the churches - which has been said by others in this thread.

Yes, Mellow, i understand, but that is only one option and realistically isn't going to happen in my estimation. So what we have is Kap saying he cannot support marriage for gays. that he supports everyone having civil unions is quite different.

Phil, I support peace. Whether it happens or not does not change the fact that I support it.

Mellow, I don't see your point. To support a possible resolution that fits one's personal beliefs is not the equivalent of supporting full equality.

Phil, my point was that "I do support civil unions with equal federal/local rights for everyone and marriage up to the church" is a long way from saying "my personal beliefs trump equal rights regarding marriage." I did not see that characterization in what kap17 wrote.

That was my only point.

No, kap17, you do not ever have to be sorry for your personal beliefs.

I do not understand them. I and others have attempted to be clear, logical and concise in our arguments (occasionally slipping into emotionalism that I do not regret). You can hold onto your personal beliefs and apparently as long as a majority hold onto theirs, I will have to fight for the right to mine. This is not the "gay cause" you are not supporting, it is me and people like me.


Indeed, and with luck it will be overturned as unconstitutional. But it was on the ballot and people, for whatever reason or beliefs, were allowed to vote away one of my recently gained rights. I think we are in agreement, that that should never happen again.

I saw Milk last night and I have to tell you - I'm pissed today - with the caveat that the movie was factually accurate.

Here's why: (Remember I was 10 years old in 1978 and I had no idea about Prop 6, Anita Bryant, Harvey Milk, John Briggs, etc)

• Harvey Milk made Prop 6 a gay issue
  
• Str8 politicians wanted to make Prop 6 a 'human rights' issue
  
• The owner of The Advocate felt that 'the time wasn't right' for a Gay Rights Movement

Given the absolute parallels between Prop 6 (Firing gay teachers in 1978) and Proposition 8 in 2008 - why in the hell did openly gay politicians not fight for our rights as Harvey Milk did in 1978?

Where was Mark Leno? Carol Migden? Why weren't they fighting for us? You didn't hear a peep out of them!!!!

Then the opponents of Prop 8 people made the proposition a 'human rights' issue exactly the opposite of what Harvey Milk argued against in Prop 6 in 1978.

...and guess what? Harvey Milk was right!!!

Why didn't the older gays who lived thru this link these two issues and educate us younger gays? Why was the 'human rights' path taken and not the gay rights issue taken? Why did YOU older gays allow that to happen - you knew the history behind Prop 6!!!!!!

You can't fight bigotry as human rights issue and then go marching for gay rights!

Hellooooooooo!!!!!

The gay community f^cked up the fight against Prop 8 big time.


Had I known any of this - I would have advocated to fight the proposition differently.

Why didn't the older gay generation fight for gay rights instead of 'human rights' - I'm really pissed today. I feel the older gay generation - who'd already been down this road - let the gay community down.


"If" Harvey Milk were alive today - Prop 8 wouldn't have passed - I can tell you that.

A county supervisor from San Francisco took on a state legislator in a debate in Christian-right Orange County in 1978. Why didn't Mark Leno or Carol Migden fight for us?

Who are the other gay politicans who let us down in 2008? I want names, damn it!! "They" no longer deserve our votes!!


I'm also going to boycott The Advocate and Gay.com - where were they with Prop 8??

The Advocate's current cover has the audacity to say:

Gay - the new black


Please....where were you Advocate in this fight? I didn't see any billboards or TV ads run by your organization fighting Prop 8.

You suck Advocate.

Whoa there Rick. Things were a WHOLE lot different in 1978. I absolutely agree that the Prop 6 and Prop 8 battles were remarkably similar and as I said (somewhere) the gay community desperately needs a leader.

The politicians who are openly gay are hardly leaders. Harvey Milk was. A HUGE part of his campaigns had to do with coming out. His argument was that once people know someone who is gay, they are less likely to discriminate.

Lots of people are out now.

In the decades since, things have shifted remarkably. The levels of acceptance are something I thought I would never see. Remember there were no gay people on TV or in the movies (and if they were, they were evil or suicidal - check out Vito Russo's book "The Celluloid Closet" sometime)

The gay movement that existed in 1978 does not exist anymore. I would argue though, that it was the beginning of the level of acceptance that we enjoy today.

We were dealt a couple vicious blows right in a row. Harvey was assassinated and shortly thereafter the AIDS crisis began. The gay community has been shattered and reassembled many times since then. In the late 80's and early 90's, we actually had a few leaders. Cleve Jones started the Names project. Larry Kramer wrote "Faggots", Randy Shilts wrote "And The Band Played On". We had several high profile advocacy groups like ACT-UP and Queer Nation and it didn't seem like a day went by where there wasn't a protest (here anyway).

I think you're right. The gay community should get some of the blame, the "No" on 8 ads were terrible. A level of complacency has (had?) set in. Perhaps you're right that we should have embraced and hammered the Gay Rights rather than focusing on Human Rights, but I think the idea was to make it more about fairness. No on 8 counted on a level of acceptance (that really didn't exist in '78) and probably a normal voter turnout. I don't know anyone who didn't question the ads they were running at the time. No one found them effective at all. The other side was using children and fear. I don't know if combatting that with gay rights would have worked either. I just don't know.

I really don't understand you blaming the older gay activists for not teaching the younger gays their history. There are busloads of books and documentaries out there. No one taught me about the history of the community, I sought it out and didn't have a hard time finding it either. Suddenly, unlike when I was a kid scouring Mom and Dad's copy of "everything you always wanted to know about sex" to find the one paragraph mentioning homosexuals, there was a new book nearly every day. "After The Ball", "Another Mother Tongue", "Stonewall", "Beyond Queer", the Randy Shilts books. There was a resurgence of interest in gay classics like "Giovanni's Room", Rubyfruit Jungle", "Death In Venice" and "A Single Man". "The Times Of Harvey Milk" won the Academy Award for best documentary. Gay films were coming out that were not all about our "seedy lifestyle"... that's why "Basic Instinct" was such a big deal, if you watch that movie, every single lesbian in the film has killed someone. It was a throwback to a representation we thought we were finally getting past.

I absolutely agree that I didn't see Carole Migden out there, I didn't see Tom Ammiano or Mark Leno out there... and I got a little pissed at the Join The Impact rally when they all spoke loudly and angrily about the passage of Prop 8. I think I even muttered "where were you before this?" Ironically, the politicians who DID speak out, were all straight. Gavin Newsom, Diane Fienstien - hell even Arnold "The Terminator" said it was wrong! I don't know whose idea it was to use only straight politicians in the ads, but that was as wrongheaded as the rest of the campaign.

There were some notable differences between 6 and 8. It was believed from the very beginning that Prop 6 would pass. That made the fight so much more vital and intense. With Prop 8, people were saying all along that it wouldn't pass. "Didn't stand a chance in California". "Who would vote to take away rights?" There was also a landmark presidential election going on. People who had NEVER punched a ballot before were registering in droves. Also, like I said before there was no 'face' on either side. With Prop 6, there was John Briggs (and Anita Bryant) on one side and there was Harvey and the gay community on the other. Who did we have for Prop 8? Who would we get to even sit down to a debate? On either side? We had the People For The Elimination of Gay Rights and The Church of Gays Should Never Get What We Have (not their real names) and... Gavin Newsom (?)on the other.

One thing I do know is that we should absolutely stay angry. Being quiet and expecting other people to do the right thing got us into this mess. Perhaps one good thing will come from this and a new leader will emerge. So far, not so good.

How can we fight for 'Human Rights' when str8 people (...outside of RR) don't even consider gays human?

I saw the parallel between Prop 6 and Prop 8 in the way it was handled. Policians wanted the issues to be 'Human Rights' and Harvey Milk wanted it to be a 'gay' issue.

...as stated before he was right. Prop 8 should have been a gay issue and yes, I'm pretty darn mad at the "openly gay politicians" (...and older gays too because they ALL should have seen this coming - they ALL lived thru this before.)